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Thread: Dust cyclone separator

  1. #11
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    Wow, thanks so much Dave!

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    I got a chance to look at the Thein and that is one of the designs I looked at. I guess it would be interesting to put the two back to back in use. Mine might be overkill but for the kind of dust we are talking about I'm not sure there is such a thing as overkill. You have to work with powdercoat to understand just how fine of dust we are talking about. I'll make a guess it's much finer than wood dust. It just floats forever and that's what it was made to do. Add that it is statically charged and you have a mess. And when it gets compressed like in the cyclone or in a filter it clumps. Which is good in the cyclone, bad in the filter.

    The net is wonderful for this kind of research because you can look at all the different approaches. It's not always apparent how something works though. I felt like while it was inconvenient to have the tall Razor Pig Tower the length and amount of taper was key to function. This is all seat of my pants and I have no way to prove mathematically what's happening. But my prodigious gut tells me coming in at 8" instead of the far greater dia of the trash can is would give me far higher centrifical force initially and the squeezing it down to 4" would really get it going. I was hoping the dust would be separated out for sure by then and then drop into a pretty dead zone in the bucket because it was 10"+ below the vac pipe up inside the Razor Pig Cyclone ( hereby referred to as the RPC . In this case my gut feelings and the wonders of engineering to stock worked out much to my amazement.

    And thanks to your comments Paul and PJ's we've here by dubbed this cheerful experiment the Razor Pig Cyclone! I like it, kinda catchy
    Last edited by C-Bag; 04-14-2016 at 10:25 AM.

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    Is there anything special like baffles or vanes around or under the inlet & outlet ports? I've seen some different models/brands and would swear that there were some vanes directing airflow but they never showed the inside details and I don't know if it was typical, required, or just an added feature that does increase performance.
    Dust cyclone separator-cyclones.jpg

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    I agree, I looked and read carefully and could never seem to get details. Like I said it was seat of my pants on my part. I could not see how a short cyclone could be able to get the vac pipe far enough away from the inlet to be effective. There are no baffles and I decided to not angle cut or taper the inlet pipe. I wanted to direct it to the top inside of the cyclone and shelter the inlet from anything that was going on in the top of the cyclone so it's just a straight piece of PVC just a little beyond the hole in the side of the cyclone. The vac pipe is just straight, 14" down the middle of the cyclone, no baffles and no support except where glued in the top. I have no idea how the guy in the link(BTW thanks for that ) figured out turbulence. I just vac'ed some powdercoat off the floor and the opened up the bucket and the vac afterward to see what happened. To my surprise the powdercoat was flakes in the bucket and not in the vac. I also vac' the mill and listened and it swirls around for a while. Wood and swarf are no problem and somewhat a test. Fine dust is really the test IMHO.
    Last edited by C-Bag; 04-19-2016 at 07:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C-Bag View Post
    PJ's

    I got a chance to look at the Thein and that is one of the designs I looked at. I guess it would be interesting to put the two back to back in use. Mine might be overkill but for the kind of dust we are talking about I'm not sure there is such a thing as overkill. You have to work with powdercoat to understand just how fine of dust we are talking about. I'll make a guess it's much finer than wood dust. It just floats forever and that's what it was made to do. Add that it is statically charged and you have a mess. And when it gets compressed like in the cyclone or in a filter it clumps. Which is good in the cyclone, bad in the filter.

    The net is wonderful for this kind of research because you can look at all the different approaches. It's not always apparent how something works though. I felt like while it was inconvenient to have the tall Razor Pig Tower the length and amount of taper was key to function. This is all seat of my pants and I have no way to prove mathematically what's happening. But my prodigious gut tells me coming in at 8" instead of the far greater dia of the trash can is would give me far higher centrifical force initially and the squeezing it down to 4" would really get it going. I was hoping the dust would be separated out for sure by then and then drop into a pretty dead zone in the bucket because it was 10"+ below the vac pipe up inside the Razor Pig Cyclone ( hereby referred to as the RPC . In this case my gut feelings and the wonders of engineering to stock worked out much to my amazement.

    And thanks to your comments Paul and PJ's we've here by dubbed this cheerful experiment the Razor Pig Cyclone! I like it, kinda catchy
    Glad you got a chance to check them out. Not sure if one is "better" than the other, regarding Powdercoat particulates or nasty ALO2/ - SI/carbide dust. Never saw any comparisons of value in my research. A tell tale sign would be how much powdercoat made it to the foam filter in the vac in your case. For me the Thein was more of a design decision for size relative to the jewelry blast cabinet and the hybrid idea was to keep the yang up below the Thein for return to the fan/filter and the Poor SP (static pressure) specs of the fan.

    Your cone design on the fly is an obvious win in my book and the logic of sizing/taper make good sense. More so that it can be built in an afternoon with scavenged parts and be so effective on a tough medium!

    I agree about the net but find this topic challenging because there is very little detail/technical info about CFM, static pressure, tapers or angular placement/sizing of the port for the Thein design, etc. The physics of flow dynamics is pretty vast and an entire lifetime of study imho, and know just enough to not hurt myself or others...I thinkż For instance the idea of vanes in cone design is valid I think but wouldn't have a clue as to how many, where and how tall/thick or shape of them. A lot of Calcs and Calculus to figure a quality starting point. My thoughts are having Plenty of CFM/SP is the best place to start, experiment, test and refine it...not completely scientific but will get you there. In your case with a "prodigious gut" and 1/2 a day...for the blast cabinet, not so much a half day but some prodigious gut and a lot of because of the design restrictions!

    LOL - RPC! Glad we could be of assistance but you started it!! Thanks C-Bag! ~PJ
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    If it helps, this is all I could find on specs:

    Specifications :

    Material: ABS
    Color: White
    Airflow Capacity: 174-280 m3/m
    Airflow pressure: 2.5-22 Kpa
    Wind speed: 18-28m/s
    Efficiency: 90-99%
    Dust particles: 0.3 μm - 40 mm
    Dimension: Approx. 320mm /12.6''
    Outlet Diameter: 56mm / 2.20''

    This was for the latest plastic version. It also gave these circumstances:

    Cyclone dust collector Equipped with power in three forms:
    1, Connection vortex fans,
    Fan Selection: The minimum power is more than 750W, with high dust removal efficiency, dust removal efficiency was between 90% -99%. 24 hours uninterrupted work. After connected filters the power must be more than 1100w.

    2, Connected industrial vacuum cleaners,
    Industrial vacuum cleaners selection: 220V1200W above, Continuous working time of about two hours. Dust effects above 99.9%.

    3, Connected Household vacuum cleaners,
    Household vacuum cleaner selection is not limited, as long as the power more over 1200W can be used, cleaning is very effective, dust removal efficiency also reached 99.9%. Notice: Continuous use of time can not exceed vacuum cleaner prescribed half hours.
    ........................................................

    Then, I found this:

    This new version Turbo charged features a spiral in the air intake, a parabolic body and an improved dust bin exhaust port. These enhancements improve the cyclone's efficiency and avoid the stagnation of particles in the upper part of the cyclone. A tapered exhaust port flange that fits through the collection container lid makes the use of an inner flange unnecessary when using metal or sufficiently resilient plastic lids. A template pictured, for cutting and drilling the collection container lid, and stainless steel fixing screws and washers are included.


    Spiral air intake – quickly establishes a downward flow pattern alleviating the previous models tendency to have particles stagnate in the upper part of the cyclone
    larger outlet in to the collection bin (66mm, old model 60mm) – improves particle entry in to the bin and better separates the incoming and outgoing airflow's leading to greater capture of dust and cleaner outward airflow
    parabolic body shape – dust falls more quickly and loses more velocity than in previous straight sided model leading to greater capture of dust and cleaner outward airflow
    manufacturer claims improved efficiency of 10 - 30%, energy consumption reduction of 20% and minimum 99% particle capture.
    ........................................................................... .
    They also had a few videos too, I'm not including those... hope this helps.



  9. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to matermark For This Useful Post:

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    A drizzly mid-western mornin' to y'all. Dang, reserved today to paint and post the punch stand. Even DIY stanchion pins to render complete. So a little production delay.
    All entries in this thread deserve "Thanks". Really wrings cyclonic dust separation at our DIY level. It's all in the search terms, boys. Prepping shop-vac driven type for decent amount of wood planing. I'm surprised, via web, no one refers to cyclone/ filter/ over shallow water like the Rainbow household vacuum.
    Looking in...Spoiler >> humor alert
    Squiggle City! Microsoft owes big time improving their technical vocabulary. Bill, check's in the mail right?

    re C-Bag's static electricity; a positive bond of components with a continuous bare copper wire run to ground could help. If it works on ESD for sensitive electronics...Form loops around sheet metal screws and terminate with alligator clip to ground rod or conduit connected with physical ground.Name:  you're_grounded.jpg
Views: 128
Size:  2.6 KB For his part, created functioning system, seat of pants or not. Distinctly not parting seat of pants, though I nearly did about all the iterations butchering a Razor Pig.

    For monitoring reduction in flow there are 1.6 gazillion (+/- .002%) of DIY manometers. Many no more detailed than a "U" of small clear vinyl tubing, & telltale fluid taped to a deluxe cardboard panel. The pitot (more red squiggles, my dumazz browser have any vocabulary?) could be shielded from particles with a fairing and is low pressure side. You could graduate by total time, uses, or other scales.

    While I have snips, no full length shear. Cut those thin gauge materials, sharp sturdy knife over leg edge of angle iron, pushing down scissor like in long smooth motions. Clamp project edge with a square edged 1x2, so drop carries most of the burr. Drawfile with a single-cut to a burr free result. Then, roll flat hem, or wire edge around same angle iron. Like burnishing, use dry bar soap on 1'' unfinished (not paint anyway) hardwood dowel. Works so well, you'll b-b-b-b-beam worthy of malt refreshment, literally.

    Speaking of dumazz, bet if posting up all PC whatnot on FB, dem der scarlet squiggles wouldn't be so prevalent. Like which prez hopeful, undignified celebrities, or confused characters manage outrunning dogcatchers all these years. Term limits? Sure, year in office, year in jail. Frankly dear, I do give a d_ _m.

    and finally, if I have matermark's nome-de-plume correctly interpreted, we might as well direct their kind attention toward "un-bucket tool bag". PJs knows why. No JK, still FAH! Why is this so much fun?

    Natcherly
    TM51
    Sincerely,
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    ...we'll learn more by wandering than searching...

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    PJ, ALL of us find this topic challenging. There is very little detail/technical info about CFM, static pressure, tapers or angular placement/sizing of the port for the Thein design, etc. The physics of flow dynamics is pretty vast and an entire lifetime of study. Yup, there's that. What isn't visible, why so little application beyond the cyclone or baffle of common aerodynamics like fairings, ailerons or Kamm's spoilers? Heck, even one or two pitch of helical vane would seem to induce solids one way while releasing lesser charged air for other separation means.

    Who wants to bet; a dearth of info in commercial sites links involved process of making ones own calculations vice replicating a configuration via specification. Some have more $$$ than ingenuity, interpretation, or just plain fortitude. That sells collectors.
    As if science, physics, related mathematics are private domain. Well yes; exclusive (root: exclude) terminology is an act of self preservation to create, instill, and practice those.
    So, we can read or experiment and have at it. Steal their main tool- be systematic, note observations, measurement, experiments during tests, and subsequent modding of hypotheses. If old hotrodders could adapt means to sync carbs, we have hope.
    Last edited by Toolmaker51; 08-07-2016 at 11:44 AM. Reason: closing statement
    Sincerely,
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    ...we'll learn more by wandering than searching...

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  14. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toolmaker51 View Post
    PJ, ALL of us find this topic challenging. There is very little detail/technical info about CFM, static pressure, tapers or angular placement/sizing of the port for the Thein design, etc. The physics of flow dynamics is pretty vast and an entire lifetime of study. Yup, there's that. What isn't visible, why so little application beyond the cyclone or baffle of common aerodynamics like fairings, ailerons or Kamm's spoilers? Heck, even one or two pitch of helical vane would seem to induce solids one way while releasing lesser charged air for other separation means.

    Who wants to bet; a dearth of info in commercial sites links involved process of making ones own calculations vice replicating a configuration via specification. Some have more $$$ than ingenuity, interpretation, or just plain fortitude. That sells collectors.
    As if science, physics, related mathematics are private domain. Well yes; exclusive (root: exclude) terminology is an act of self preservation to create, instill, and practice those.
    So, we can read or experiment and have at it. Steal their main tool- be systematic, note observations, measurement, experiments during tests, and subsequent modding of hypotheses. If old hotrodders could adapt means to sync carbs, we have hope.
    Yup, proprietary is Proprietary and usually invokes the cost of R&D. The last Flow dynamics program I used was $18K just for the software when I built the 70' wind tunnel to AMCA specs...even designed the static ports for it and had the machinist make them. Even tougher is when you combine 4 refrigerants that all flash at different temperatures and pressures and involve laminar flow...hard to even simulate that...and definitely proprietary.

    Interesting that Thein is just a garage/shop guy and I don't know of any commercial versions of his design...but a lot have copied it and got it to work. There is a guy (Bill Penz) that gives a lot of info on the CFM/Static requirements, because he is afflicted with long term exposure (lung issues) to fine sawdust.

    HVAC guys have a lot of test stuff that is pretty reasonably priced. I picked up this one on Amazon a while back for this project. Dwyer has a lot of good info and products for SP/DP.

    Yepper on the old SU Tool...still have mine. Got it when I had my TR3 and used it for years on SU's, Webbers, etc. For the old 3 duce setup I built a vacuum manifold setup to tie into them...2 quads were tougher but could do them by ear and a sniffer. Bought an SU tool for my Daughter and Son inlaws Ahee 3k a few years ago and helped him learn how to dial them in...still available.
    ‘‘Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest.’’
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    Wow, while I call my experiment the Razor Pig Cyclone, you my friend TM51 are also a whirling dervish! The RPC has nothin' on your ability to spin off great ideas!

    I know this is going to sound weird, but I'd rather learn not to mess with the Razor Pig while its sucking than to rig up a ground. I'm lazy that way, and it's no more of a zap that dragging my feet across my SO's wool carpet My possibly irrational reason for not grounding it too was in the powdercoat process the powdercoat is charged and the part is grounded......if I ground the RPC, wouldn't that make the pc stick to the inside of the cyclone? As it is right now it doesn't. Dunno....

    The manometer is also a good idea, but like checking the vac pipe on the top of the pig for powder coat dust, it's somewhat like an old idiot light in a car. It's going to tell me it's already too late isn't it? So far my inclination to dump the bucket out every other garbage day along with my super stingy pocketbook of not wanting to replace the hepa in the vac has worked. More aversion therapy.

    While I appreciated matermarks post, it was just like the other stuff I'd seen. There was more sales hype than actual dimensions that are going to help me fabricate the RPC. what I came away with from my search was, there truly is a million ways to skin this cat and understanding the idea of how it works was going to help me more than formulas. I'm a math tard, plain and simple. So I got lucky and I think anybody else if they truly wanted to make a RPC could make one from my pics and brief description. I also have a metal block when it comes to making plans, so what you see is what I got. if I can do it and it works, I'm pretty sure there are way sharper knives than me in the HMT drawer that can do the same.

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