showing build details

[tjroberts43]

What happened to actually showing how you built it? Can go to Google images to look at brag pictures all day long. Show me how you got there. Site has gone down hill since adding all the extra crap and plans for sale. No one just shares their ideas anymore gotta put up plans for sale. Which doesn't look like it took off so well

[Canobi]

What happened to actually showing how you built it? Can go to Google images to look at brag pictures all day long. Show me how you got there. Site has gone down hill since adding all the extra crap and plans for sale. No one just shares their ideas anymore gotta put up plans for sale. Which doesn't look like it took off so well

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you tj. I joined to share my builds and learn from the talented and skilled folks around here. I understand when someone's taken a great amount of effort and time to knock up a decent bit of kit from scratch, which would of course benefit from a set of plans to follow and probably be worth every penny too but now everyone is doing it (even stuff made from scraps lying around), its robbed the site of its core spirit.

I for one will still be documenting my builds to post and share regardless, but it sucks to think I'm not likely to learn anything new from here now

[Jon]

I moved these two posts from this thread: another power hacksaw into our Site Suggestions and Help forum.

I understand it can be frustrating to see a tool that you'd like to build, without accompanying details. I started this entire website based on that same exact frustration.

However, if you want more details on a build, please ask for them politely. We encourage people to post their builds, even if it's just one pic plus one sentence; the idea value alone is very useful. Needling our builders for more details isn't acceptable. However, you're welcome to needle me to alter site policy if you want. I've been running forums for 17 years and the resulting thick skin has made it very difficult for me to ever get insulted

tjroberts43 - sites go up and down hill all the time, and I appreciate your feedback. However, every metric we use to measure user happiness has increased lately, including tool builds, forum posts, registrations, and pageviews. Nevertheless, good criticism is still extremely valuable. What do you see here that you don't like, and how would you like to see it improve? If you were the admin tomorrow, what would you do first?

Canobi - thank you for your feedback too. The more negative the feedback is, the more important it is to us. Plans sales are increasing, and authors are starting to make real money. We even have free plans available. However, less than 1% of our members are selling plans, and that even includes the people whose plans we are now editing for upcoming inclusion in the marketplace. I'm confused by what you mean when you say "everyone is doing it". Let me know, and your comments might spark positive change.

FWIW, the irony is not lost on me. You both want people to give more details on their builds, and I want you to give more details on your feedback. On that point, we are in exact agreement.

[mklotz]

I'm particularly annoyed by this quote...

"No one just shares their ideas anymore..."

Many of my posts are ideas meant to simplify or improve the performance of some task. Any one with reasonable shop skills should be able to construct his own version without the need for any plans or poorly edited videos.

It might help if tjroberts43 gave us some examples of what level of instruction he's requesting with his statement...

"Show me how you got there."

If that's meant to include such fundamentals as:

drilling and tapping
silver soldering
rudimentary turning and milling practice

it's unlikely anyone will produce a post to satisfy his needs. No post is going to include a full course in wood or metal shop fundamentals.

This is not to say that more detailed instruction isn't required on more complex posts. The obvious solution, though, is for tj to ask for what he requires in the specific post.

Global criticisms are seldom well received.

[C-Bag]

If I may interject here, as one from the other side of the fence so to speak. Picture this:

You need something you can't afford or is not offered anywhere.

You gather all your accumulated parts, learn some new skills and make the tool. As an after thought because you never really thought about sharing it, you take pix. You're not sure how to show all the details that would show what you did, or if anybody even gives a damn, or even what size pix to post.

You post them and watch as there are very few views, 1 or 2 "thanks", if your lucky a comment from the VERY FEW participants on HMT. Even though you see 375 viewers looking at the forum. And your post slides down the list under the Avalanche of posts, only to be seen for an instant again as DIYer thanks you and adds your post to your tool page.

Your tool now resides in its obscure digital cubbyhole accruing "requests for plans".......???? With no comments.......are these real? Who is the mass unseen tide? They join, give their terse "hi" and join the digital Avalanche never to be heard from again. If you DID make some plans would these ghosts actually buy them?

I joined because #1 the few who actually interact(percentage wise) are supportive and enthusiastic. And it never occurred to ask for plans, I wanted the ideas and they are here in spades. There is no drop in ideas since the plan ideas came along, in a certain way it feels like the sheer number of posts have gone up. I for one appreciate "thanks", comments and feedback. I'm glad to answer questions and show details, but that almost never happens. And when there's no response I just figure nobody was interested.

[tjroberts43]

Probably should have spelled everything out in minute detail. I meant by no one sharing anymore because most posts are now I title with picture and maybe a video and the statement I built this. That's great but but no dimensions or materials or anything. Kind of hard to go with a picture (usually crappy) and that's it. The show me how you got there means show me how you came up with a solution to build it. I know everyone has different materials available that is understood but show the process of building it. Some basic dimensions. The process you used to come up with the construction. The work around for for not having certain tools to use to come up your solution. Sorry for opening my mouth about this issue since I like to learn new ways of doing things or different ideas on things. I'll just fade back to the background. Since I'm not as smart as the rest of the popularity contest of who can make the most crap. Sorry to waste your time.

[tjroberts43]

I look at a post most of the time and see something I like I click on it and all I get is a picture I built this. I'm not going to stay there and waste my time begging for plans or waiting for who knows how long to get a reply of this is the only pic I have. If you didn't take pictures of the build why post it? Because you want a pat on the back or want all the people begging? If I'm looking for something I have a need for it and don't want to waste hours trying to find what I'm looking for.

[Jon]

Even if you present your criticism imperfectly, it still has value, the same way that someone presenting a build imperfectly still has value.

Our university's law school often has lectures and talks about startups; they are constantly going on about how important it is to gather criticism from users. I will say that "need more details" is without a doubt our #1 criticism here. This is why we added the monthly Best Documented Build award, so that we incentivize documentation. Same deal with the Plans market. It's difficult to convince people to put in even more work, but if we offer them a reasonable payment, or reward, or even greater recognition among their peers, they will consider it. It's not a terrible idea to add a similar Best Documented award, granted on a weekly basis. The downside is that I don't want to discourage people from posting their tools, if all they have is a pic plus a sentence. Someone can take that fragment and run with it, leading to a more detailed build by another user, and then another.

We've even recently added a one-time-per-visitor corner popup survey to non-forum pages. It asks for a 1-10 rating of the site, and then it follows up with some "how to improve" questions. The ratings are very high; also known as Net Promoter Score, anytime your "promoters" (those who gave a 9 or 10 rating) are over 50%, it's a great sign. If you sort out the junk comments, you can see the "more details" theme. These ratings and comments are anonymous; we don't know who made them, and we don't care. We've only had this up for a short while, but here's the data we have so far:







C-Bag makes a good point about engagement. We know that around 90% of visitors to forums simply don't post; it's an exaggerated application of the Pareto principle. One advantage we get from encouraging votes, likes, or "Want a plan" buttons (that one needs work, I know) is something called a micro-conversion or micro-engagement. The hurdle of registering, introducing, commenting, then posting a tool is significant. So we have to offer opportunities for people to dip their toes in first. Users who make even the slightest engagement on a site are far more likely to then eventually register and make great posts.

[Toolmaker51]

Reading Jon's charting illustrated some conclusions for me; except #8 & #10, not able to read Cyrillic or know who 'noel' is. LOL.
Postings are dependent on at least 4 elements. Remember there are countless years of experience considering all 14,000+ of us; inhabiting what appears to be every continent - the variety of languages not withstanding.
1st: Author's ability to write descriptively in either technical or common vocabulary. Like public speaking, know your audience.
2nd: A reader's vocabulary should be close to the author or willingly research unknown terms.
3rd: Illustrations [photo or drawing] are best for details, if certain items of clarity are considered.
4th: Placement in correct category including reasonable 'tag words', so posts appear in a variety of searches. Perfectly related is using search function logically vice shotgunning.
The entire discussion fits recent personal experience; during new employment actions. First off, to the Consortium [a certain few adopting this label] I'm in a new shop; pretty decent place doing what is generally industrial repair. Past two weeks have made parts for or did repair for different equipment everyday. I thrive on variety. I wrote a few weeks back "isn't just a hobby" no matter what your level of involvement. Real creativity, engineering, and fabrication isn't the blueprints and perfectly equipped shops. It's producing desired results with that at hand, in your basement or for a company with bills to pay.

Anyway the interview process elsewhere was sharply divided between HR directed type sessions and sit-downs with owner or supervisor. I'd warrant comparison would separate them in some type of 80/20 manner as well.
The 'Theorists' are witless toads dependent on every means of interpretation, sorting, elimination and micromanagement imaginable. The Know-Alot's use experience conducting interviews and handling of employees in general.
In one group I was able to nail every interview; the other had to submit collected information to another channel.
One is having lunch with a new friend, one is more like an interrogation. Pathological liars could pass either with correct vocabulary but fall flat on shop floor. Poser in aisle 5, clean up please.
On the other hand, 'We' get asked 'how to' this or that first or second day...That is a benefit of this site in particular, virtually a world-wide shop floor.

[C-Bag]

There is always room for improvement but there seems to be quite a few new "faces" in the new tool section posting. And I've seen a couple of new folks say they were longtime lurkers, even registered before and were compelled to post. While I certainly don't want this to turn into a compulsory thing it certainly helps folks go from a peanut galley back seat driver to a contributor.

I didn't understand it was supposed to be a blow by blow site when I joined. I thought it was more about ideas and not until I jumped in did I start to get how to make a post that conveyed those ideas. My first problem was how to take pics. Not until I started using my iPad to take the pics did I get the sizing where it was clearer what I'd done. Then seeing some of the excellent posts the "usual suspects" posted did I more get what was intended. I still don't have plans to completely document a build as its still not part of my creative process, but I believe I've gotten better at presenting details and my cognitive process for the build.

One of my ongoing problems is trying to find something in the archives. Case in point is the rod bender PJs posted a while back. I found the original while wandering in the archives. It was I think from one of the welding sites that gets harvested into here. I went to find it again and couldn't do it through the site search. Not until I did a deep search of my history did I finally find it again! Unfortunately my history got wiped in a virus attack and I tried again and can NOT find the original. I even went through all the archives one by one.