1963 used engine oil disposal article - photo

After the fires were finally extinguished in Kuwait a huge area in the desert was slick with a thick coating of the spilled oil When we first arrive there in 2003 the ground was still black out there by the time we left in 2013 a lot of that area was showing signs of sparse vegetation taking root the oil was slowly being broken down by the UV rays of the sun and the sparse rainfall into enzymes adding nutrients into sand that had never grown anything.
On our family farm when I was a kid, we poured our old oil along the fence rows for weed control. Years later we noticed that had backfired horribly as grass and weeds grew faster along there the oils had been poured than anywhere else.
Given enough time nature will correct all of man's mistakes it just takes longer to break down the many additives put in motor oils

Tom was on it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPrAuF2f_oI

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Originally Posted by carl blum

I knew a shop that would drip the used oil on a fire brick in their wood stove for heat.
Carl.

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That's a really good idea. Most shops around here have bespoke waste oil burners. Basically free heat all winter.

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Originally Posted by Frank S

After the fires were finally extinguished in Kuwait a huge area in the desert was slick with a thick coating of the spilled oil When we first arrive there in 2003 the ground was still black out there by the time we left in 2013 a lot of that area was showing signs of sparse vegetation taking root the oil was slowly being broken down by the UV rays of the sun and the sparse rainfall into enzymes adding nutrients into sand that had never grown anything.
On our family farm when I was a kid, we poured our old oil along the fence rows for weed control. Years later we noticed that had backfired horribly as grass and weeds grew faster along there the oils had been poured than anywhere else.
Given enough time nature will correct all of man's mistakes it just takes longer to break down the many additives put in motor oils

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That's really interesting about the motor oil for vegetation control. It was common to spray oil on dirt roads for dust control when I used to work in the Alberta oil patch. It worked really well.

So interesting story. In about 2008 there was a big forest fire here. Fire crews used foam to help put out the fire. Normally after a fire all the vegetation is supercharged, and you can practically watch it growing. Not after the foam. Absolutely nothing grew for the first dozen or so years, and it has only recently started to turn green. Whatever was in that foam really did a number on the soil, and what's more worrying is that it's persistent.

Times Beach in Missouri sprayed used oil on their roads to control dust. The oil was contaminated with Dioxin and the site is now a State Park.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Times_Beach,_Missouri

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Originally Posted by nova_robotics

That's really interesting about the motor oil for vegetation control. It was common to spray oil on dirt roads for dust control when I used to work in the Alberta oil patch. It worked really well.

So interesting story. In about 2008 there was a big forest fire here. Fire crews used foam to help put out the fire. Normally after a fire all the vegetation is supercharged, and you can practically watch it growing. Not after the foam. Absolutely nothing grew for the first dozen or so years, and it has only recently started to turn green. Whatever was in that foam really did a number on the soil, and what's more worrying is that it's persistent.

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Our neighbor's garage/barn caught on fire last week. (according to the fire department the garage door opener started it). There is a row of pine trees next to the burring building. When the FD got there, they raised their ladder and sprayed the whole row of trees with AFFF
( https://www.consumernotice.org/environmental/afff/).

They also used it in the building. Then after that they told he he could not used the 4 cords of firewood they sprayed the foam on. Then when cling up they drained the tank in the truck out on the ground when the foam additive in it. Or course it ran all along the ditch on the road to the creek. The vegetation in the ditch ir already dying and al of the trees, even those not affected my the heat of the fire, are turning brown.

It will be interesting to see what happens as time passes.

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Originally Posted by hemmjo

Our neighbor's garage/barn caught on fire last week. (according to the fire department the garage door opener started it). There is a row of pine trees next to the burring building. When the FD got there, they raised their ladder and sprayed the whole row of trees with AFFF
( https://www.consumernotice.org/environmental/afff/).

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I don't trust that article. It attempts to use big science-y words to sound scary by opening with "AFFF contains water and other chemical components, including ethylene and propylene glycol". Ethylene is produced biologically and is given off by plants and required to ripen fruit. It's why you don't store your bananas in bags or containers. The bananas gas out ethylene, which causes the other bananas to ripen faster. You need to let that escape if you want your bananas to keep longer. And propylene glycol is a food grade additive that's in half the stuff you eat including ice cream. Not exactly agent orange. So... this article is not off to a good start.

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Originally Posted by nova_robotics

I don't trust that article. It attempts to use big science-y words to sound scary by opening with "AFFF contains water and other chemical components, including ethylene and propylene glycol". Ethylene is produced biologically and is given off by plants and required to ripen fruit. It's why you don't store your bananas in bags or containers. The bananas gas out ethylene, which causes the other bananas to ripen faster. You need to let that escape if you want your bananas to keep longer. And propylene glycol is a food grade additive that's in half the stuff you eat including ice cream. Not exactly agent orange. So... this article is not off to a good start.

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You are correct that FOOD GRADE, Propylene Glycol is not toxic. It is actually used as a bowel cleaner in preparation for a colonoscopy. However, while Ethylene is a naturally occurring compound, Ethelyne Glycol is very toxic. Old antifreeze used to be a very good way to kill mice in a barn. The love the sweet taste and it destroys their liver. Modern antifreeze has a battering agent in it so it is not so tasty! The BAD stuff in the AFFF are the PFAS.

From the article..."PFAS, or per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances, are a group of widely-used, man-made chemicals that are likely all around you. They are sometimes called “forever chemicals” because they don’t break down, and they can accumulate in both the environment and the human body. Studies have found that PFAS may cause serious health problems, including cancer."

There is a reason that so many young people are getting cancer and other diseases so young. I personally believe things like this are part of the reason. We are poisoning our home planet.

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Originally Posted by hemmjo

You are correct that FOOD GRADE, Propylene Glycol is not toxic. It is actually used as a bowel cleaner in preparation for a colonoscopy. However, while Ethylene is a naturally occurring compound, Ethelyne Glycol is very toxic.

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But there's no ethylene glycol in the AFFF.

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Originally Posted by hemmjo

The BAD stuff in the AFFF are the PFAS.

From the article..."PFAS, or per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances, are a group of widely-used, man-made chemicals that are likely all around you. They are sometimes called “forever chemicals” because they don’t break down, and they can accumulate in both the environment and the human body. Studies have found that PFAS may cause serious health problems, including cancer."

There is a reason that so many young people are getting cancer and other diseases so young. I personally believe things like this are part of the reason. We are poisoning our home planet.

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Okay lets slow down here. PFAS are inert, and that's why they don't break down. They don't chemically react with anything. So it's bad that they're polluting everything, but if they don't react then you need to look at another mechanism to cause cancer. They literally don't react and that's what makes them last forever. Like asbestos; it's inert and doesn't react, so how does it cause cancer? The particles are very sharp and cause tissue damage over and over for a long period of time, which can eventually develop into cancer. But PFAS are not sharp, so what mechanism causes cancer? Well PFAS are classified a "2B carcinogen" which is defined as "Limited or no evidence in humans. Limited or insufficient evidence in animals." Basically someone has a hypothesis but there's no evidence and/or it hasn't been tested. I would strongly suspect that PFAS have negative health effects but end up not being carcinogenic, mainly due to their unreactivity. To put this into perspective, red meat is a 2A carcinogen, and a 2A classification is a lot worse than 2B.

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Originally Posted by nova_robotics

snip....Okay lets slow down here. PFAS are inert, and that's why they don't break down. They don't chemically react with anything. ...snip

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Respectfully.

For the sake of this discussion, it is very important to note that the word “inert” is often misunderstood and widely miss used. For example, the inert, also called noble, gasses are commonly said to be inert. As scientists continue to press the envelope of understanding, we are learning they are not truly inert.

To paraphrase from “Chemical and Engineering News” ;
Instead, one might describe the noble gases as aloof. Because they’re reluctant to share electrons from their filled outer electron shells, noble gases are generally considered un-reactive. But it is possible to wrestle reactivity from these elements, as the late chemist Neil Bartlett showed in 1962, when he made the first noble-gas compound, Xe[PtF6], by mixing xenon with platinum hexafluoride.

This is not the only “inert” material to have been successfully combined with other elements. There is Sodium halide, which is Sodium and Helium. There is AuNe which is Gold and Neon. There are others. I am not making this stuff up.
https://chemistry-europe.onlinelibra...open.201800257

The point is, many items are said to be inert, when they are not. The forever chemicals, PFAS, are definitely not inert. They are called “forever chemicals” because they break down very slowly under “normal” environmental conditions. Under extreme conditions, like fires, they can easily break down into very different compounds.

Teflon was said to be safe, and maybe it is when used properly. No one from Dupont bothered to tell us that when overheated, Teflon begins breaking down and releasing toxic gases and smaller chemical fragments. Such decomposition starts when cookware with PTFE coatings reaches temperatures of 500 degrees Fahrenheit or more. Is there anyone here who has NEVER let a skillet overheat on the stove?

The PFAS chemicals are dangerous because we really do not know enough about them. You can read about this for yourself.
https://www.questhealth.com/articles...rom-here.html?

A short clip from that page;

After reviewing existing research and large-scale studies in areas heavily contaminated with PFAS,⁶⁻⁹ the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering, and Medicine (NASEM) determined that there’s sufficient evidence of an association between high PFAS exposure and an increased risk for³:
• Lower immune system response (children and adults)
• Unhealthy levels of cholesterol or fats in the blood (children and adults)
• Decreased infant and fetal growth
• Kidney cancer (adults)

It is difficult to get valid information about the products we use everyday. Corporations hide valuable information and feed us BS about how “safe” their products are. Just one example, tetraethyl lead. https://www.biobasedpress.eu/2018/11...never-erupted/

This is the view from my perspective.