Accident caused by forklift forks left up - GIF

**ibdennyak** · Nov 10, 2019, 01:24 AM

"Legal logic" is a contradiction in terms.

Thank you sir. I agree most whole heartedly. Legal logic has descended to how much can we get paid for this.

After reading the opinions on the forklift vs scooter debacle, I find I had to agree with both sides. Then I realized that every one was trying to fix blame. I decided that the whole thing was more of a social problem....lack of responsibility for one's actions. I guess if I was the judge in that situation, my decision would be to see if the lady needed medical attention, then take away her scooter key. If she rides on a walkway and drives into stationery objects, she shouldn't be scootering. It could have been an innocent pedestrian as well as a forklift.

Then I would take away the forklift drivers key and hand him a broom. It seems more suited to his abilities. Then I would take the forklift and drive over his phone to remove the distraction from his life. I would strongly suggest to the owner of the lift truck to find an operator with a longer attention span or he will be paying for the next accident. I didn't see any deliberate animosity in the situation, so I would call it two idiots meeting at the wrong time.

Being a registered and certified olefart, I have noticed that personal responsibility has gone away in the last 50 years or so. I kind of blame the new method of child rearing. The first generation has grown up and still has the who can I blame mentality. That attitude has fed on itself and gotten worse. For example, I won't say that I never did any dumb things. On the contrary I was notorious for doing stupid stuff, but my parents considered it as survival training. I remember quite vividly being about 4 years old, and being fascinated by how a stove burner would be black, and when you turned a knob it would glow red. Yep, I finally got the courage to touch it.....resulting in four huge blisters, immense pain, and a lot of screaming and crying. My mother informed me that I was a dumb a$$, applied some burn ointment and four band aids. Oddly enough, to this very day. I have not touched another burner without making sure it was off.

Another example.....my parents took me to see a Joey Chitwood demolition derby. I thought the car tricks looked like fun, so I started doing jumps etc with my bicycle. One stunt that fascinated me was the driving through a burning wall stunt. I decided I could do that with my bike, so I got a bunch of lathing and built a wall out of it. Yep, poured some diesel on it, lit it up and rode towards it at top speed. I kind of picture my mother watching me through the window and telling my dad that his kid was a dumb a$$. Anyway, as soon as my front tire penetrated the wall I realized that anything above the handle bars would be demolished by my face. It worked very well....flying debris everywhere....and more excrutiting pain from burning splinters stuck in my face. My dad came out, stomped out the flames and hauled me into the house where my mother picked out the splinters and applied liberal quantities of mercurochrome.....which is supposed to be an old timey disinfectant, but which I think is really iodine with some pain inducing chemicals to make sure you don't forget the latest lesson. Oddly, I have never ridden a bicycle through a burning wall since.

Assuming that my logic is even close, the sad thing is that it would take at least 2 generations to correct. Assuming I am crazy, I will now hide under my chair....let the flames begin.

**Frank S** · Nov 10, 2019, 01:47 AM

I was leasing a half acre and a 16,000 sq ft building for my machine and fabrication shop the guy in the building across the lot had a the 28,000 building leased from the same landlord. The landlord calls me up one day and tells me not asked me to sublease the small 1000 sq ft area behind my shop to a friend of his in the soil stabilization business. After meeting the guy I had a sublease contract drawn up by an attorney in the contract the guy was prohibited from storing any large quantity of liquid chemicals on the property without a proper EPA approved containment vessel 5 copies were made up of the agreement 1 to my landlord to sign permitting the sublease 1 for me 1 for my neighbor since he and I shared a common area and 1 to the lease the 5th was for my attorney to file everyone signed all was honkey dory for a while I made a lot of special equipment for the guy my neighbor and I called glowworm then one Friday a used fiberglass 10,000 gallon fuel tank shows up. I ask the guy what he was planning on doing. He said he was going to have a containment berm built and store a caustic soda mixture in it for his soil stabilizing business he even had a signed letter from the land lord stating that it was ok as long as the mixture was within the parameters in accordance of how glowworm's business required it for use.
Monday morning we show up to find a 5000 gallon spill of 90% caustic soda a ruptured tank with one end blown out no containment berm had been built just the tank sitting there as it had been unloaded the previous Friday morning. Richard and I both call the fire department who intern call the EPA glow worm is nowhere to be found all of his equipment is gone I call the landlord who shows up in his limo. He just says I told you not to lease to the guy so deal with it and by the way you have 90 days to vacate Next call is to my attorney My neighbor has a building filled with the stuff as he was down hill and his over 400 coke box refrigeration units that he was in the business of repairing were ruined He and I get a hazmat clean up company to remove the mess which meant hauling off 500 cubic yards of contaminated soil gravel and asphalt. My attorney advised Richard and I that we would be money ahead to just move our businesses rather than try and fight the landlord or glow worm who no one could locate anyway. after the 300,000 dollar clean up and clean EPA bill paid for mostly by Richard and in part by me we escaped the EPA fine only because of the clause I had in the sublease contract and a copy of the letter from the landlord saying it was OK for glowworm to have the 10,000 gallon tank placed on the property. Richard moved his business to his property at his home I bought a 5 acre commercial property with 2 partners a few miles away. in the end the landlord was the biggest looser as the 2 buildings remained empty for 5 years and he was hit with the EPA fine Richard's insurance covered most of his losses.

**IntheGroove** · Nov 10, 2019, 07:40 AM

Originally Posted by mklotz

"Legal logic" is a contradiction in terms.

Like "Criminal Attorney"...

**Frank S** · Nov 10, 2019, 08:19 AM

If criminals are presumed innocent until proven otherwise what does that make the victims presumed to be lying until the suspect is proven guilty, unless it is a case involving harassments or sexual misconduct. Then it always seems to be just the opposite the alleged victim is supposed to be believed without question while the burden of prof to the contrary rest on the accused meaning they are automatically guilty until proven innocent.
And where does the victimless crime come from if there was a crime committed wouldn't there have to be a victim somewhere?

**IntheGroove** · Nov 10, 2019, 08:33 AM

Don't get arrested in Mexico because the Mexican judicial system is governed by Napoleonic Law which states that you are presumed guilty and must prove your innocence...

**Crusty** · Nov 10, 2019, 08:33 AM

That's why many people hate the US legal system once they understand how it operates. It often makes little sense from the perspective of common folks because it's a system designed by and for lawyers to get paid and justice isn't a required end product. In the story that I mentioned, the operating principle was the "deepest pocket" principle because lawyers' race horses have to be fed.

The fundamental problem is that some system has to be in place for regulation of the affairs of people in a civil society and no one has been able to devise something better that works, but once greed is imposed onto any system corruption ensues.

**ibdennyak** · Nov 10, 2019, 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Crusty

That's why many people hate the US legal system once they understand how it operates. It often makes little sense from the perspective of common folks because it's a system designed by and for lawyers to get paid and justice isn't a required end product. In the story that I mentioned, the operating principle was the "deepest pocket" principle because lawyers' race horses have to be fed.

The fundamental problem is that some system has to be in place for regulation of the affairs of people in a civil society and no one has been able to devise something better that works, but once greed is imposed onto any system corruption ensues.

That is very true. I do believe that justice is for sale, no matter what we are taught. I also believe that greed has infested our entire political system. How ever, I also think that I will have to deal with it until a better system comes along.

**Frank S** · Nov 10, 2019, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by ibdennyak

That is very true. I do believe that justice is for sale, no matter what we are taught. I also believe that greed has infested our entire political system. How ever, I also think that I will have to deal with it until a better system comes along.

One of the reasons why I am glad that I live where I do our county Sherriff try's to consider persons to be sovereign unto themselves whenever possible. Most land owners realize that what they do effects themselves if they misuse their land it will not be productive if they happen to infringe on another's sovereignty the same can happen to them.