Barn or garage find

A friend of mine of 35+ years called me a few days ago to tell me of a lathe he knew of belonging to a lady whose husband had passed many years ago. She had tried to sell it a few times but was unsuccessful due to its age. One guy went so far as to say she should just have it hauled for scrap.
Determined that this piece of yesteryear iron would not wind up in China she called my friend who called me.
Armed with only 2 pictures of the lathe we decided to make the 210 mile trip to Ft Worth. The wife also decided to take advantage of the trip to visit her DR to renew a prescription which would soon require the trip anyway.
Bob my wife and I showed up at the lady's house this morning around 9 Am This was when I found out in order to get the lathe out we first had to remove a Knee Mill, which I found out was also part of the deal.
The mill is called an American Vertical
Attachment 16353

Attachment 16354 Attachment 16355 Attachment 16356 Attachment 16357
I ead going to remove the entire upper part of the mill to lighten it up for lifting but to do this I would have needed to remove the hand wheel then the worm screw so the top half could come off here is a pic of inside the base tower
Attachment 16358
It turned out it wasn't necessary after all.
Now everyone knows why I put those little cranes on the rear of my trailer.
Attachment 16359 Attachment 16360
the lathe turned out to be another LaBlond this makes 3 I have now but this one is at least 20 or 30 years older than the other 2
Attachment 16361 Attachment 16362 Attachment 16363 Attachment 16364 Attachment 16365 Attachment 16366

I also got a 2 cylinder air compressor mounted on an 80 gallon vertical tank but I traded it to Bob for a 3 cylinder compressor with an unused 80 gallon horizontal tank to mount it on. Attachment 16367 Attachment 16368
Part of the deal for the machines was for me to take about 2500 lbs of steel and some old tooling to help her get her garage cleaned out
Attachment 16369 Attachment 16370

Yup, age is one thing, but I'll bet dollars to donuts it was about condition and size of the lathe not to mention the mill. Not all of us are set up like you o' king of heavy metal. Much less where to put beasts like that in a regular garage. I have purposely limited myself in shop size and ability to haul heavy metal. Because I know I suffer badly from TAS( tool aqusision syndrome).

It will be interesting to see how you keep these two fine examples of Old Iron from the scrapyard without indoor storage. Tarps are machinery's death around here. But we are close to the coast and you are more inland I think. I don't mean to cast despersion on your wonderful find and ability to take advantage such find. I look fwd to seeing them back in the lineup in your shop. Hopefully with some blow by blows of what it took to get them going again.

Recently we had the mother of all barn sales with huge similar examples of Old Iron put outside to be able to give access to the completely packed barn. One was a vertical mill, a huge horizontal and huge old drill press. I think the vert was an American, the horizontal was an Index and I couldn't see anything on the drill press. They wanted $450 ea and each one was in running condition. When the sale was over after a month(I had come when it had already been going on for 3 weekends and it was still stacked to the rafters!) and the machines were still sitting outside :( I don't know but I think like me nobody had the equipment to load and unload or big shop for them.

This guy I think had gone over the tipping point from a working shop to a hoarder. There was tons of all kinds of stuff and peaking out of a pile was this Atlas 7b shaper. I asked one of the family who was running the sale and expected it to be too much. When he said $125 I had the duel reaction of surprise and doom. I knew I couldn't walk away and it was going to fit in the garage. Bonus is its going to be very handy and its not the worthless obsolete tool it's been made out to be.
Attachment 16372

C-bag if that 7b ever has a mind to go walk about, zs my Mates from down under talk be sure to let me know. I'd love o have shaper Anyone who feels they are worthless probably have never used anything that didn't at least have DRO'smounted on them
Yes Not having a climate controlled facility at this time does pose problems.
SO far I haven't been able to find out much about the mill and there have been so much repainting done on the lathe where the S# is supposed to be located it is going to take a while to scrape through to find it

This give me 3 vintage La Blond lathes at this time. I have 1951 26 by 48
Attachment 16389
#2
Attachment 16390
And now #3
Attachment 16391

C-bag I have found that it is best not to disturb layers of dirt or even surface corrosion until such a time that a rebuild is in order.If that be the goal.
As long as an old machine functions with predictable results sometimes any patina that is present is also best left un molested. Especially with out a proper climate controlled area.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frank S

C-bag I have found that it is best not to disturb layers of dirt or even surface corrosion until such a time that a rebuild is in order.If that be the goal.
As long as an old machine functions with predictable results sometimes any patina that is present is also best left un molested. Especially with out a proper climate controlled area.

---

You are probably right Frank. The 7b was covered in that weird coating that is old dust and oil/grease. It looks AWEFUL but some kerosene and elbow grease and it looks wonderful underneath. I don't need shine, I just need to see critical surfaces that are not destroyed by rust and corrosion.

I'd never even heard of a shaper until I saw a couple in the local Craigslist. I asked my brother, the real machinist and he enlightened me. But he also pointed out when I sent him the pix of them that like so many 7b's they had been canabalized for the different parts like covers, ratchet assembly's and of course the vise. So when I said oh, it's just an obsolete predecessor to the mill, he pointed out it was slow, but could do things a mill can't do, like cut internal splines. So was useful if you knew how to use it. And the added bonus tooling was cheap. But seeing that this 7b had its vise, tool holder(that is specific to it) and all the linkage along with the covers, I had to ask how much. I was prepared to walk for $4-500(which still would have been a deal) but not $125.

There has been quite a learning curve to it like the motor is wired backwards and I only knew this because of all the YouTube vids I watched. Besides it being marked on the motor pulley, it's in how it runs. A correct one the fwd stroke is slightly slower than the return. Mine goes fwd faster and returns slower. The wiring is a mess and I think there is a problem with the start capacitor. Everything I've gone through the oil/grease/jelly whatever, is almost like its crystallized or something. But once I get through the gunk it's ok.

I would LOVE to have a LeBlond and for whatever reason I keep seeing them around. Recently there was a weird add in Craigslist for a lathe' $700, one pic with the tarp partially pulled back and I could tell it was one of those short like 14x30 LeBlonds. It looked like it was covered in oil, been sloppily painted several times with just a # to call. No info, not even a complete photo. But the sad fact is that would just cause a cascade of problems I'm not prepared for just yet. But maybe after I've beaten this POS Asian 9x20 lathe into shape I'll be able to know how to recognize a useable Old Iron lathe worth dragging home.

You ever heard of Fluidfilm? I got the tip from a guy that spent most of his life as a machine tool reconditioner and he turned me on to it. It's been around since like '47 when the Navy hit this co. up to come up with something that could protect the cables on ships. They use it for undercoating back east. Turns out some of the auto parts places like AutoZone carry it. And it made from lanolin, so it's non petro and non toxic. I've been using it on stuff in the shop like the tables on the bandsaws and other iron tools that rust here and it never goes away. I tried Boeshield and it didn't last, this stuff does. Great lube, and great protection. Not cheap, almost $9 a can, but if I was going to have stuff in iffy shelter it's what I'd be squirting on it.

I've always used LPS 3, Which as with most products it doesn't always cover every aspect of metals protection for 1 it is nasty messy stuff But recently a friend and partner has turned me on to a product he sells. Made by KBS Products, called cavity coater
It has a 4000 hour salt spray protection I have some so I plan on giving it a try Oh yes it is most assuredly not cheap.
I use his Paints almost exclusively.Plus for removing rust I've found nothing better than the Rust Blast

That is another major concern, parts. I got a little scare trying to source a new half nut for the 9x20. Even though there is a lot of them around there seems to be only one source for parts, Grizzly. Theirs is the G4000 9x19, but everything is basically the same. Don't know if it's made to a higher standard. But I'm loving their service. To be able DL the parts book, get the part #, then enter it into the "parts store" and it gives you availability and can pay directly with PayPal. And it's here in 3 days. Amazing.

I'd never heard of American or Index but they were on TM51's list of good Old Iron IIRC. You have to find old machines to cannibalize, right? Depending on the part that can be tricky I would think. It's why there are so many canabalized 7b's. Finding a ratchet case for a 7b seems to be almost impossible. They've not made the machine since like '62 and spare parts have long since gone the way of the dodo. My 7b had some kind of crash or operator error and the ratchet case was repaired. Looks like aluminum solder or braze. Kinda lumpy on the outside but seamless on the inside where it counts. But couldn't find a replacement case anywhere as a backup. And without that it's a strictly manual machine. There's a lot of trepidation about repairing Zamak that is what the ratchet case, guards and other parts are made of. But I did find reference to using good aluminum solder and or braze and it must have worked. And I happen to have some excellent AL solder, braze and flux. But I'd like to find something to practice on first :)

Do you think LeBlond is going to have parts if you need it? These kinds of issues are good to know as background knowledge as one starts to cast about for a "real" machine tool. So far it's helped me get an idea of what to look out for on the 7b.

I almost never cannibalize unless it happens to be from a machine already at a scrap yard and missing so much that it would hardly be worth saving.
Most of the time if I need anything other than a casting I will make my own. as long as I can find suitable stock to start from.

Somebody of your prowess could make whatever it takes to fix a machine tool. With your ability to weld cast iron you could probably bring a casting back from the dead. I see where some on old forums talk about making a new ratchet box/case. That would be quite and undertaking for me. Look at what I found out in the desert:
bakersfield for sale "metal shaper" - craigslist
Not as cheap as mine but looks totally cherrie.

well after cleaning the lathe and mill I powered up the lathe and ran it through its paces. Runs great the only thing is who ever repowered it with the timing belt drive grossly under powered it with a 1 hp 120v motor But I can at least use it like it is if I need to
Every thing on the mill functions and the 3 ph motor does run so About all I need to do to it is make 2 mor mounting bolts for the head as it only has 2 now and the spindle brake band is missing that too is no problem for when I get around to it

For lubricants, I like ARMITE products, especially 12/34. Not perfect, but close. Isn't noxious, hard to remove, or too thick. Real good intermediate rust preventative.
For longer terms or against dirt, I oil or grease surfaces and 'wallpaper' them with plastic food wrapping film. Way easier than cosmoline variety sealants, when time for re-commissioning arrives.
Wish I had a few ounces of FluidFilm for every gallon I dispensed for Uncle Sam. Certainly our USN established most intensive cable maintenance program. Cable only performs as intended when properly lubricated, as a tremendous amount of surface area is working as a mechanism. Individual strands nest into each other under tension, lube enhances ability of the already smooth wire to tense and relax back into helical form.
The best protectants are probably those used on injection molds in storage; also called ''cavity seal''. On the expensive side, and their solvent is one of few things that dissolve it.
Kerosene is the standby for cutting through that grease/ dust/ no-wantium. But try regular handcleaner during or afterward, equally effective on painted or surfaced areas on machinery. Even the dollar store versions work. And washes right out of cotton rags!

That's great Frank. Sounds like a way easier time than I'm having with my Atlas. It's a little like peeling an onion as everything I take apart has something messy or backwards. I guess that's why it was sitting in a stack of junk and was cheap :)

So far the only real head scratcher is trying to figure out a motor start capacitor. It's got the old original 1/2hp motor and the wiring was hinky to say the least. Upon checking the start capacitor it's all funky and corroded inside.

I don't know how it was working, but it would just barely start with even the slightest drag. Everything I go through has things loose or not adjusted right or like the motor, wired to run backwards. I'm used to the valley where there were all kinds of electric motor repair shops and this area doesn't have a full fledged industrial supply. There is nothing on the old cap and it makes no reference on the motor data plate what it should take. I've watched vids and tried looking through help pages and it still seems to boil down to take to somebody who should know. Old stuff does have its mystique but I'm pretty easily stumped on electrical probs.

You are the second to bring up the idea of hand cleaner TM51. Marv brought it up during the whole excursion into Airy Points on surface plates. He mentioned when they toured a surface plate plant that's what they used to clean them. Should known it would work great for cleaning this antique! I keep forgetting because I bought a big pump tub of orange hand cleaner with grit. I guess that would work, but I think the cream would be just the ticket. Kerosene is pretty nasty stuff and messy. Thanks so much for the tip.

C-bag I like thr grit for painted surfaces but have only used cream style on machined surfaces, always figured I didn't want to introduce any grit where it could be embedded between 2 matting parts

I tried it and it works ok but getting the grit off without water sux. I'll see if I can find some without pumice. When I looked online it looks like they all have pumice now :(

I did some measuring yesterday the La Blond 16" originally meant 16" over the carriage with the 1.5" riser blocks that someone made makes it a little under 19 " but it will also swing 22" to the ways. This makes it taller than my 19" La blond which will only swing about 14" over the carriage.
Since the old lathe has had several mods to it already I might think about making a gear head lathe out of it but return it to a shorter height One thing it has that neither of my other lathes has is a full 2" through hole both of the others have only a 1.5"
If I were to go the route of making a gear head out of it I wouold make a spindle with a 3.5" through hole though
It defiantly would no longer be a La Blond other than ways carriage and feed, But that is a lot of work I am not sure I want to spend time in doing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Frank S

I did some measuring yesterday the La Blond 16" originally meant 16" over the carriage with the 1.5" riser blocks that someone made makes it a little under 19 " but it will also swing 22" to the ways. This makes it taller than my 19" La blond which will only swing about 14" over the carriage.
Since the old lathe has had several mods to it already I might think about making a gear head lathe out of it but return it to a shorter height One thing it has that neither of my other lathes has is a full 2" through hole both of the others have only a 1.5"
If I were to go the route of making a gear head out of it I wouold make a spindle with a 3.5" through hole though
It defiantly would no longer be a La Blond other than ways carriage and feed, But that is a lot of work I am not sure I want to spend time in doing

---

Ah, but there is the challenge. I don't know for sure, but I suspect there are others here who you get an idea and even though it may not be practical just have to do it. I have so many things I "should" be doing but damn if I don't let myself get sidetracked because I just want to do something else.

I keep thinking ok, I'm done, and I'll see another piece of this 7b that needs to be cleaned up/fixed. There was a broken casting on the oil tray that was for a 1/2" rod that the motor belt guard mounts to. I decided I want to make another guard kinda like the guy that made the gear cover for his SB lathe. But I'd need to fix that casting to mount it. I just got the bug yesterday and built the whole missing part up with brazing rod and ground it back into shape. Kinda silly, but satisfying.

Are you hesitating because you don't want to "defile" the LeBlond or is it all about it would take too much time? I can see either one, but I don't think you would be destroying the machine. Just the opposite.

That's a tricky search, to phrase sans pumice.
found one GOJO US: Heavy Duty Hand Cleaners
GOJO US: Heavy Duty Hand Cleaners
Not all soils are the same. So when it comes to ... Lotion-style hand cleaner with pumice scrubbers that removes a broad range of soils. SDS: English French ...

and then
ITW Devcon | Permatex Brand Fast Orange® Smooth Lotion Hand Cleaner

then remembered Marv's and PJ'S discussion on queries, using "hand cleaner' -pumice
for
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourcei...ner%22+-pumice

Thanks TM51. We were close to an Auto Zone(which also carried FluidFilm) and I asked the parts person if they had non pumice hand cleaner and she took me back and found a small tub of permatex stuff that looked just like the stuff I remember. Plain ol gel, $1.99. Price was right and it worked ok for getting the Prussian blue off my 9x12 surface plate. Not tried it yet for taking shmootz off machinery.

I'm going to see if I can find the fast orange "smooth formula". That's the key, smooth, not chunky.

I had a real interesting time fixing the gib on the compound of the old Atlas shaper. A previous owner decided to get so crazy with one of the adjusting screws that upon inspection it had plowed a big ol divot in the gib with the piled up metal at the end. No wonder it didn't move full range. Added to this the gib looked like a waffle, all schwangle. I don't remember anything in Machine Tool Reconditioning about straightening gibs that had been bent. I ended up using two sets of feeler gauges on either side of the bent area(.015 on each side seemed to work best) and mashed the offending area in my 3tn arbor press. After some trial and error and the observation for a drastic bend move the gauges closer to bend, and for lesser tweek move them away. I was able to get the ancient gib pretty flat. I'm finishing it off with some careful scraping. I'm afraid to look at the dovetail, I'm hoping it was on the end edge and not in the middle somewhere. Lots of hardware to replace because everything is a pan head machine screw, just made to die or strip.

! Not all mashing is obliteration; with feeler gauges in play it's precision mashing.
Used to send parts out for rotary swaging, result was a tapered 4130 tubing control rod. Before machining end fittings they needed minor straightening. This controlled center to center distance in the fixture and installation, and deflection in use.
By hanging a DI between the Vee blocks, monitoring progress in manual hydraulic 30t press was easily determined. They were just under 30'' long, tolerance was +/- .003, at mid-point.
Rotary Swaging, interesting process; couldn't find a decent, short representative video.
Solid bar, tubing, it doesn't care. A rather elliptical spinning barrel imparts hammering motion on die set of 2 or 4 individual halves. Cavity is machined to contour desired. They make motorcycle mufflers, control rods for semi-tractor door locks, all kinds of aircraft parts, very efficiently.

Precision mashing......LOL!

Rotary swaging sounds very interesting. There are so many things that stick in my brain that cause me wonder, how DO they do dat?
There was a long thread of a guy on like the welding web or one of those sites where he was trying to make a swage or die to expand or contract electrical conduit for making a light weight chicken coop. Personally I LOVE making stuff out of conduit, but have pondered how do they make those slide fits in the bigger tubing that like the frames on those car shelter tents and whether it would be possible to make something that would work on like 3/4" conduit. I have some ideas but it's too far down the to do list to get traction.

When you talk about straightening the gib I picture something like those multi roller arrays that they straighten like brake lines and tubing. Problem with the gib was it had very small humps from I think being jammed and buckling the gib. The precision mashing actually worked really good once I got the technique. Weird how it wasn't so much the thickness of the gauges, it was how close to the masher that made the most difference. I loved too that I finally got to bring my new to me ancient Brown & Sharpe 6" tool makers knife edge straight edge to bare upon the precision mashing process. I love it when I can show my SO that my rampant TAS( tool acquisition syndrome) actually has use .

Powered swaging leaves a fully formed reduction, as lathes would more or less, but displaced material lengthens the part in a predictable manner. A rotary swage, foundation and compliant guarding is a decent capital investment.
Shelters and like products, especially aluminum tubing, is compressed by a similar but stationary die. The excess is further depressed into the axial wrinkle of the smaller portion. A instantaneous process, quiet and less labor intensive overall.

Roller straighteners are common, for flat or wire stock in punch presses, along with feeders, for material supplied by spools. The work described was identical to what you did, except the gib is a flat profile.

And TAS has a cure...better described as intervention.
Let SO work one of those operations. If there is a spark of creativity, problem solved.

C-bag since the od La blond has already been defiled to an extent, that plus the fact that I don't have any interesting history facts to tie to it any mods to It is don't feel would be detrimental. Becides I would most likely retain the La blond head just in case it might be wanted if I were to sell the lathe.
I currently would have to make several tools before starting a project such as making a gear head. I have been making some drawings for one but in doing so it has started me thinking about a constant variable drive instead. but for now at least the old lathe is in running order and it is not as though i really need another project at this time.
I am more inclined to get the American mill positioned in my chop van and set it up since my other mil is an Enco 4 inch column bench mill

You know Frank there is something truly liberating in not getting a perfectly restored Old Iron machine tool. It's great to get those "good bones" and use that as the basis to continue its life being what it was meant to do, do work.

I waded through a lot of opinions good and mostly bad about what was available locally. Used Tiwanese/Chinese. I needed a lathe and a mill, but was not going to need to do production work or really large work and moderately precision. I also couldn't justify the 3-5x cost for American machines when I really got down to what I thought I needed. Size was also a major concern.

Being a noob at all of this was extremely daunting. But because the research took so long for what I wanted to do then compare what came up for sale on CL I was able to get a 9x20 wth a ton of tooling and an Enco RF-30 w/some tooling and heavy table for just a little over $1k. They both needed work to function better but could do what I wanted as was and as I got better I could tell what needed fixing on them. But like you describe I also need to make other tools, fixtures and in my case add to my education to tackle the next evolution.

It's been quite a growth process to understand how the lathe, mill and now the shaper along with the other tools contribute to the repair, maintenance and expansion of function of the whole shop. All this has been greatly helped by wading through Machine Tool Recondtioning by Connolly.

I'm intrigued by your reference to "constant variable drive". I understand that for general machinery, but don't know enough to know what that means for your application. Is this instead of gears for threading?

C-bag the variable drive would only controll th spindle speed in in stead of a selection of gears or a transmission if you will or in the case of old iron that had 3 or 4 different sized flat belt pulleys and a single deep reduction back gear this gave either a total of 6 or 8 possible spindle speeds the change gears or feed rate gears to control the carriage are not effected by spindle speeds since they are directly connected to the main spindle the rete of feed remains constant regardless of turning RPM

Ah, makes sense. You are always working on another plane as far as size and hp involved. Another of my planned upgrades to the 9x20 is the heavy duty 3hp treadmill DC motor and controller I picked up.

In your case don't you only need a big 3ph motor and VFD?

That would be one of my thoughts. I had a Van Norman Truck brake lathe set up that way it was a 10 Hp brake lathe you could chuck the hub and drum with the duels still mounted about 20 minutes and it was good to go back on the truck trailer or buss. really saved a lot of time

Holy cow, I can't even fathom that! Or what a rig like that would look like.

I decided to contact Leblond at LeBlond Ltd. - LeBlond and Standard Modern lathes, K.O. Lee, Johnson Press, Deka Drill and W.F. & John Barnes products. to get a handle on just how old the lathe is.
In less than 2 hours after I sent them an email John sent me a reply. it seams that there is very little info any machine made by Leblond prior to sometime in 1931. All he had was that the machine was shipped in 1918 also that machines of that size and vintage would have been able to pull 1 to 1.5 HP from the overhead shaft drive system, This was largely dependent on how much actual power a 2" flat belt could deliver. He further acknowledged that since the spindle had been converted to a timing belt drive and now has taper bearings instead of the lead Babbitt spindle bearings that it could probably handle a 2 to 3 HP electric motor the only issue might be when using the low speed back gear or the condition of the gear train for the feed, which makes perfect sense to me with the 100 year old cast Iron gears
I have a 2 HP 3ph motor that I might use if I decide to do any mods or upgrades, but on the other hand since I don't need it to be used as a HOG lathe the 1 hp 120v motor does have merits