Chinese plan for failure?

I don't want to abuse my good metalworking drills by using them on jobs around the house so I keep cheapies in my "house tool" bags. These well-abused drills kept falling out of their plastic holders and sifting to the bottom of the bag which made finding the desired size a pain.

So, when I saw a DeWalt 18 piece set with a really secure container on sale for a good price I bought it. Good American name although, of course, made in China, it has the 1/2" drill with a 3/8" turned-down section so can be used in 3/8" electric drill.

It wasn't until I looked closely that I noticed it had space for two 3/16" drills! I presumed it was a labeling error but, upon measurement, there really were two 3/16" drills in those slots.

https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/f...he/81392-1.jpg

Recently, Lowe's had another sale and I bought a 21 piece set in a nearly identical container. Even more surprising, this one has two 1/8" and two 1/4" ! And yes, I checked the sizes; they really are duplicates, not mis-labeling.

https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/f...he/81392-2.jpg

https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/f...he/81392-3.jpg

None of this bothers me. I was most interested in the secure cases plus having some sharp drills. I have plenty of drills to cover whatever sizes are missing and I'll probably never need those sizes around the house.

What puzzles me is why they are doing this. Does DeWalt and/or their Chinese partners think that these more common sizes will be used more and thus dull/break enough that backups are in order? Is it a clever way to save a few pennies by advertising a 21 piece set that, in reality, only contains 19 distinct sizes?

Whatever the reason, check the actual sizes included when buying cheap drill sets.

On closer examination...

The second set has doubles of 1/16, 5/64, 1/8, 3/16 and 1/4 So that's a 21 piece "set" with 16 unique sizes.

The first set has doubles of 1/16 5/64 and 1/8 as well as the 3/16. An 18 piece set with 14 unique sizes.

And neither one has a 7/16".

Ah, well, I never was a DeWalt fan.

Thanks for the Tip Marv, good to know. I agree that its a bit of a rip off and a mystery. Likely you are right though about jobsite needs for pilot holes and would guess those would fit the common screws and get lost or broken more frequently.

~PJ

Interestingly, the lengths of the doubles are cleverly adjusted so as to create the impression of a properly graduated set. It's meant to deceive.

With that being the case then definitely made to deceive! Shame on them in my book and glad you alerted us to that...Thanks!

It's also interesting that I also never had much that much hurrah about DeWalt until I used my sons portable 10" contractor table saw. For being mostly plastic I was surprised how rigid and stable it and the fence were, but the power of the motor and quality of cuts are what really impressed me. From ripping plywood to poplar molding it had very minor break out and a nice finish with a 60t blade.

I will be very discerning about their tools from now on! ~PJ

Their position would be defensible if they weren't altering the product display to give the impression of different pieces!

Although I don't see them on these, all of the similar "Made in the USA" marketing tricks are interesting too. "Made" (but not manufactured) in the USA, or "Designed and Engineered with Pride" (but not manufactured) in the USA, or even adorning products or marketing material with American flag graphics and the word "America".

There's nothing inherently wrong with purchasing products not manufactured in your country (I'm typing on one right now!), but it makes you wonder if all of the non-US manufactured products would be as successful in the American marketplace if they weren't allowed as much leeway to spin their manufacturing location.

If, as I do, you consider intentional deception to be lying, then virtually all advertising is a lie.

Up to 40% OFF is one of my favorites, with the discount applied to the single item in the inventory that isn't moving.

and not to be used in conjunction with any other sale or item discount. I'm with you Marv...It's Lying and it even creates the gray area so we think it's OK. Marketing rips our knickers while we aren't looking, complacency price guaranteed...value not so much.

Honestly I don't care where its made as long as it fits my need and lasts according to quality and price. Design, Quality, Function, longevity. It doesn't mean I'm going to pay $300 for a Perfect set of screw drivers that will last a life time, nor $30 for a set because someone winked and said these will last a lifetime and oh here is a 40% discount if you buy them today.

I hate rip offs as much if not more than the next guy, but when I was fabbing machinery I always had extra 1/8" and 1/4" bits rolling around in the bottom of my Huot index as I drilled hundreds of pilot holes a day sometimes. So I think it's useful/thoughtful but that's just me.

I'm also NOT a Dewalt fan. The most worthless thing they ever gave me at work was a Dewalt 4 1/2" grinder. Same with the 3/8 drill motor. We had stacks of dead ones in the tool room. Basically the same bad design as Skill and others with the soft plastic housings with the stupid paddle grip switch. Why would you make a switch that would easily start the grinder back up when you put it on a bench or floor if you happened to put it on top of something? ok, don't get me started.....rant off......

As I've stated several times, my objection is not to the extra bits.(although I already have plenty of those); it's to the deceptive advertising they use in selling their product.

Label it "JOBBER'S DRILL SET INCLUDING DUPLICATES OF OFTEN USED SIZES" and I'll go away happy. Calling it simply a "set" when the average person's perception of a set does not include duplicates is deceptive advertising, or, as I like to term it, a damn lie.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mklotz

Label it "JOBBER'S DRILL SET INCLUDING DUPLICATES OF OFTEN USED SIZES" and I'll go away happy. Calling it simply a "set" when the average person's perception of a set does not include duplicates is deceptive advertising, or, as I like to term it, a damn lie.

---

And that there, my friends is the keystone. Advertising types have little association with products; while extolling suspicious qualities and benefits. That their expertise is limited never seems to create an issue. Caveat Emptor. It would be an interesting day in court, a legitimate drill index as exhibit A vs their interpretation.
Per the staggered presentation we are accustomed to; part of that is human engineering, to select one from three adjacent, different diameter bits. That duplicate sizes are staggered is suspicious. Their claim might stem in costs, changing the mold inserts of label size is minimal, the core for what drill should be there vice the duplicate would take a bit more work. Plastic indexes actually grip to some degree compared to steel.

Well, I'm going to have to admit I would probably buy the set as the duplicates are ones I tend to use a lot. I have to agree on advertising it differently though.

So many of the problems seen in Chinese tools revolve around fitness for purpose and deception. We buy a cheaper tool expecting it to perform a function.So often the tools fails to perform because elements of manufacture has been skipped or downgraded to keep it under a price point.

Its the branded tools that annoy me, buying a vice grip or some other brand well respected in the past, to find it no better in manufacture quality but very different in price to exact copies that come out the same factory door in a different package.

I recommend to you the book Poorly Made in China BY Paul Midler- its an eye opener.

You will look at their products with new eyes.

Thanks Ozwelder for the tip. I just went and got the audio version. I listen to books while doing simple tasks in the shop and it keeps my mind busy. It was eye opening just to read the reviews on Amazon. The first ones were all people who have been in China trying to do business and all comment how everything he said was true. It sounds like I'm going to be doing the same thing as I bought a U2 universal cutter sharpener off eBay where the exporter was directly Chinese. It took me 4mo. To get things squared away as they kept getting things messed up, all with that they were sorry. It was more like a waiting game I think than customer service. I like books that give me deep insight into things I don't know about like the last one was https://www.amazon.com/Dictators-Han...r%27s+handbook

It was another that really opened my eyes to the hidden workings of business and governments that had never made sense to me.
Cheers.

It may very well be deceptive advertising however I see the point even if probably a dull one. 3/16 would be the size of pop rivets the same with 1/8 can't say about some of the other duplicates but if the ad read 21 pieces that does not necessarily mean 21 sizes
I bought several 500 piece set of craftsman tool sets to give as a Christmas presents for my employees one year each set contained about 25 pieces of what I called filling fodder and each feeler gauge every Allen wrench and the plastic pouches counted as a separate piece they even counted the casters nuts and bolts as part of the 500 set. Even though I got them at a huge bulk discount I felt ripped off but the guys cherished them

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ozwelder

So many of the problems seen in Chinese tools revolve around fitness for purpose and deception. We buy a cheaper tool expecting it to perform a function.So often the tools fails to perform because elements of manufacture has been skipped or downgraded to keep it under a price point.

Its the branded tools that annoy me, buying a vice grip or some other brand well respected in the past, to find it no better in manufacture quality but very different in price to exact copies that come out the same factory door in a different package.

I recommend to you the book Poorly Made in China BY Paul Midler- its an eye opener.

You will look at their products with new eyes.

---

That book is awesome! I first read it about 5 years ago, when I first moved to China. We lived in China for over 5.5 years, and I experienced many of those things first hand.

That said, I think it's really the marketing/advertising folks to blame here on the drill bits. I'd likely buy that set because it has duplicates. Those are all drill bits that I use a lot, and break the most of.
My wife is in marketing, and I'm an engineer..... we've had some interesting discussions on stuff like this. If it will sell more of something, then you know for damn sure that the marketing/advertising folks will do it!

I'm a fan of Dewalt tools, within reason, and for the most part, I've been really satisfied with what I've had. And I've also bought some cheap tools that are direct comparisons to the Dewalt ones, and there is a difference!
Dewalt does make quite a range of levels within a product line. Compare all of the drill/driver options... they've got the low end version all the way up to the heavy duty XRP version. Batteries are different, gear boxes are different, and power is different. I have several versions, all of which have their place of intended work. Other brands do the same thing... so it makes buying a new drill challenging.

I think personally "truth in advertising" has been completely been replaced with caveat emptor, EVERYWHERE. And there's nobody watching the hen house like when I was younger. Free market ideology just means whatever you can get away with or in so many cases the lowest fine when you get caught. And why not when you look around and the only truly honest folks are seen as schmucks, not somehow virtuous.

I am one of those schmucks and always will be. I have no delusions in my dealings that what I make is somehow miraculous or genius. I came from dirt farmers, cash in, cash out and the better mousetrap with even better customer service. Your word is your your bond and all that archaic stuff. So it's alien to me like I think a lot of working folks, that you would have to rely on semantic tricks and hiding the truth to make a buck. But you really have to look close everywhere you go as there's no truth, just advertising.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by C-Bag

I think personally "truth in advertising" has been completely been replaced with caveat emptor, EVERYWHERE. ....

So it's alien to me like I think a lot of working folks, that you would have to rely on semantic tricks and hiding the truth to make a buck. But you really have to look close everywhere you go as there's no truth, just advertising.

---

Marv, you've touched on something here that has brought a few out of the wood work for good reason. I feel a bit obliged to jump back in here after C-Bag on his thoughts, on something I mentioned in another post back when.

I purchased a set of angle blocks last year on Amazon for $30, KNOWING they wouldn't be great but suit my primitive needs and shop. However when I purchased them I saw they had a spec of "±20 arc seconds"...Oh My, Wow. If they were 5 times that I would have been happy. These things are about 3"-4" on the long sides and when I got them I set them up on my 18"x24"x3" granite against a known good (~1-1.5 tenths) 123 block and found right away I could stick a 6 thou feeler gauge in between at the top of the 30-60-90 and the 123 block. Rough numbers that equated to ~419 seconds. Tried to contact them no response. Amazon sent me a review notice so I did. :p They responded to and sent me another pair...same thing...a bit better. It's interesting that both 45-45-90's from both sets are much better and actually fairly close to the specs but what I wanted for the immediate task was the 30-60-90. Emailed them again, no response again.

Somewhere along the way I gave both pairs to my son to check on his very high end Keyance measuring system at work. Here are some jpgs of the reports.

Attachment 15575 Attachment 15576

I sent this and a bunch of other stuff to them, still no response. Later I took it further directly to Amazon about the truth in advertising and why I couldn't append my review. Was never able to append the review to this date but what they did made me even more livid. Again keep in mind I Knew No way in Low Tide would I ever get those specs for $30 but would have settled for 5 times that not 20 Times that. Here is the current Spec from Amazon.

Set contains two angle blocks, one 30°-60°-90° degree block and one 45°-45°-90° degree block
Accuracy +/-20 seconds, 0.0001" per inch.
Hardened steel Rockwell HRC 55
3" long x 1/4" thick
Includes padded fitted case

The Bold Red is what was added to the description after all I had tried to discuss cordially with them...with no response. When I saw this I laughed out loud, then went off. Mainly because Amazon Allowed it in the first place, not that they have a clue about such specs but because I had called them, spoken to a human and had them start a ticket on it. Amazon's CS is one of the best out there in my opinion. Secondly because the spec is so ridiculous they could send you a pretzel and be legal. And they are still selling them¿

At some level Caveat Emptor is always part of the equation in my book when buying in today's marketing-centric world, and even more so on a cheap and cheerful budget!

Thanks again Marv I think this is something important for all communities but especially here at HMT's.

~PJ

Then there are the 6 horsepower Sears shop vacuums...

Craftsman 16 Gallon Wet/Dry Vacuum (00917761) - Wet/Dry Vacuums - Ace Hardware

that can be run off a 15 amp household circuit.

6 horsepower is, ignoring losses, 4474 watts. So, at a voltage of 120 volts, it should draw 37 amps. Yeah, right.

In their defense they do list it as 6 PEAK horsepower. Of course, that raises the question; When exactly is this peak horsepower supposed to kick in? [and, when it does, will the breaker explosion wake the neighbors?]

Me too Marv, I never could understand how they got 6 little horses in there to lift 550lbs of air in .17 second and not need a barn full of hay to feed them! :p Magic I guess...or misleading I would bet a pony on.

Does anyone even make an honest six horsepower motor that runs on 120 volt, single phase power with no concern for current?

I'm not an expert but I doubt it. Motors that big are generally three phase and use higher voltage.

As I've said before...If you treat intentional deception as lying, then virtually all advertising is lying.

I saw an ad on TV last night for a $20 replica of a solid gold (non-negotiable) buffalo nickel once marketed by the US mint to collectors. They trumpeted the fact that it was plated with a massive 14 mg of pure 24kt gold.

Gold is selling for ~ $36.70 / gm so that's a stunning 51 cents worth of gold plating.

Viewers are first told about the solid gold coin. Then they hit them with the 14 mg, no doubt depending on the fact that the average American is totally ignorant of the metric system and wouldn't know a gram from a tram.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mklotz

Does anyone even make an honest six horsepower motor that runs on 120 volt, single phase power with no concern for current?

I'm not an expert but I doubt it. Motors that big are generally three phase and use higher voltage.

As I've said before...If you treat intentional deception as lying, then virtually all advertising is lying.

---

I'm rusty but the basics for induction motors is HP=(V*A*Efficiency*Power Factor)/746. Were Efficiency is Pin/Pout in either watts or HP but there is a lot involved in that, like iron/copper and mechanical loss. Simplistically Power Factor is ratio of real power to apparent power (reactive power). The math of it is on Wiki...but basically cosine theta. Nema, IEEE & EPA set standards of efficiency for ranges of HP...typically ~85%. A rough value for PF is around 85-90% but you have to get the specs to know. By applying the the given numbers and formula jockey you get (746 x 6)/(120 x .85 x .9)= 48.75AC Amps which would require 8Ga wire and maybe larger for the 20' cord on it, making it even more useless to lug around.

The Smoke and Mirrors come in because it it deemed a "Suction Motor" by the vacuum folks and started comparing horsepower to Inches of water and some to airflow (CFM). In this Craftsman puppies case it is rated at 170mph as a blower...not CFM and you can't get back to CFM with out a LOT more information. As for Peak Amps that has to do with removing the fan and loading the motor to almost burnout...what is normally called FLA (Full Load Amps)

It's a convoluted mess and remembered looking into this a while back when I bought my little Shop Vac. Here is a pretty good link to dispelling the myths about Vacuums and HP/Watts/CFM and water column. Interesting they are a Vac company called Ristenbatt and been around since the 50's. I'd buy from them just because they posted some truth and at least trying to disclose what's behind the curtain...not magic...deception.

Max case for an induction motor on a 15A/120V breaker should be no more than 12 Amps "running" and provided the PF is good enough to withstand startup currents and at least a 14Ga cord. NOT Full Load Amps, Suction Motor Amps or Peakaboo watts.

Hope this helps some out there when trying to discern what you are actually getting for your hard earned Doh! ~PJ

Thanks to Ozwelder again for the headsup on Poorly Made in China book. Very interesting and it also gives weight to the hunches I've always had about several underlying cause and effects. This is NOT some redneck just doing ignorant China bashing, this is by a guy who was a trouble shooter for importers and speaks Chinese and actually sees China as his home.

How many times have you picked up something in HF and thought "how can they make this for this much?". Answer, they can't forever. This is the ultimate come on deal where the greedy are duped by the even savier. And just like the other economic time bombs that don't go off right away, we're starting to see how the long game is unfolding.

After reading the book I'm convinced the Chinese had nothing to do with the perceived "scam" of certain duplicate drill bits. They don't use them, they aren't in the trades, they have no clue. They do what they are ordered to do(most times). And the sad fact is some marketing buffoon who got the idea from probably his brother in law who actually works with his hands which marketing buffoon doesn't, just went for it. Meanwhile he missed the op of calling attention to the marketing angle and calling them a Tradesman Set. This would allert the buyer there's a difference, is short, and would apeal to the rugged hardworking hard hat wearing, working for beer thirty kinda guy who would buy a set just because those are the ones he breaks all the time.

The other thing about this marketing stuff beyond the lies and deceptions that Marv has brought forward here, are the points of Coercion. Likely the gold coin ad had them as well. TV ads in particular are full of sensory coercion tactics with jingles/music, pretty people and Packaging, and inviting sets, all the way to the current trend of having name brand products in a scene. Same goes for radio and magazine/news adds let a lone the internet ads we are inundated with now. Reminds me of the old show Max Headroom and Blipverts (subliminal messages embedded in TV via short blasts of A/V). The short lived show (wonder why) was a warning back then (interestingly in 1984)...and here we are with cameras on every street corner, drones everywhere....how long before we reach the Minority Report with personally targeted visual adds or worse.

And don't get me started on Big Pharma ads and the repercussions of repeated $100k write offs for them, on top of the Billion$ R&D cost which only "Ad" to the torrent costs to the health care system that is already bloated way beyond recognition or value for a quick fix resulting in liver/kidney failure, nose bleeds or death!

Lies, Deception, Coercion and Greed vs Truth, Honesty, Mutual Respect (for lack of antonym) and Charity; fits that old adage of having your head in the oven and feet in the freezer, but on average we are comfortable. "Polarity" is a pair of opposites with manifold degrees in between and there is no place on the thermometer where heat ceases and cold begins. Perhaps we could change our Vibration and find our Rhythm through Mind to turn this tide and find true comfort in becoming....dunno¿ Uh Oh, the phone just rang with another marketing call...gotta go...

"Uh Oh, the phone just rang with another marketing call...gotta go..."

LOL! Just add to the list, notice in everything you see on tv, movies, commercials, shows etc. There is never a steady shot that lasts for more than 9 seconds. Then you have this weird thing with hand held cameras that seem to be either to be manned by over cafienated freaks or palsy patients. The world is now got a bad case of the jitters with no calm and collected viewpoint to be seen. Scared and nervous are way more impulsive than calm and centered. So it's way easier to coerce scared and nervous to buy something or to convince them of something. We truly are living the Chinese curse, "may you live in interesting times"! It's no coincidence The Art of War by Sun Su is read and known by all those on Madison Ave.

These are some of my favorite (advertising) things... not!

Automotive commercials that say nothing about the car's performance or the truck's load capacity offering instead lots of views of sliding around curves and hot chicks sitting next to the driver with a scarf blowing in the wind. Feel good about the product advertising.

They do mention "first in class" but fail to mention the vehicle is the only one in the class.

Having some drone read the words scrolling up the screen.

People dancing with joy to advertise drugs you should ask your doctor to prescribe for you.

People dancing to advertise almost anything except dance classes.

I'm not we really want to get started on what I am about to say but here goes.
In addition to the car and or truck ads some offering as much as $9,9995.00 off the MSRP if you buy within the next 24 hours. Yeah right. the vehicle will still cost you $10,000.00 more than it could possibly be worth. you don;t believe me! just take a look at the price a demonstrater vehicle that just happens to have a few miles over the demonstrator mileage limit or one that was ordered without all of the useless gimmicks that any person who actually knows how to drive would probably never use anyway.
Next on the list is the trumped up so called safety features which actually cause accidents by lulling drivers to believing that OH! I can drive as close to the vehicle in front of me because my anti collision alarm will automatically apply my NEVER FAIL anti-lock brakes in case of an emergency., and if I actually should be involved in a near head on collision my 15 dozen air bags will deploy and save my life.
What ever happened to people actually being required to learn to observe proper following distances, lane change speeds,how to read weather and road conditions etc, etc. Now we have the shrills for the insurance companies qho would have you believe that everyone is going to be involved in an accident but when it happens all you have to do is make a call and everything including walking your dog is covered at the low low rate of $##00 per month. OH! you say you have driven for the past 45 years without a moving violation or being at fault or a re-portable accident and you have a verifiable of HOW many millions of miles??? Well we can certainly offer you a better rate than most other drivers. Lets see now UM, uh Um oh yes, no that won't do lets try this and the 2 letter mutterings go on for half an hour only tell you that since the State has experienced a significant increase in accidents your next year's rate is $###.00 more than last year's OH, you desire to prepay for the Whipple year in advance? Well now this means we have to use another carrier as your current carrier no longer accepts a whole year's premium in advance. You have long since passed frustration, and anger is beginning to give way to plotting revenge. when you finally receive a moderate reprieve when the agent finally gets around to entering the county of your residence and you learn that insuring 3 vehicles 2 of which are over 35 years old you actually wind up paying a few dollars less than insuring only 2 vehicles but your primary vehicle happens to now be the middle aged one the oldest being that it is 60 years old is only insured for special events and the newer one of the 3 is your secondary vehicle BIG DEAL you hardly ever use the plastic and recycled beer can thing anyway.SO much for the TV ads the insurance company constantly assaults you with anyway.