Help needed, Craftsman wood planer.

I have a small and very old cast iron Craftsman planer which I bought at a yard sale when I lived in the US. Other than a "don't cut you fingers off" notice there is no other info with it. The table is 4 or 5 inches wide and the drum is a touch over 2" diameter with 3 blades. The spindle looks as it it runs in plain bearings but I have not dismantled it yet.
Does anyone know what RPM the spindle should spin at? Failing that, can anyone give me a guide to surface cutting speeds for wood, Google came up with a lot of useless info, many planer users seem to be confused between cutting speed and cutting feed.

You might peruse this page Sears | Craftsman - Photo Index | VintageMachinery.org to see if you can ID it. If you can find the craftsman part number on it you may be able to track it to the OEM and that site has tons of old manuals.

Also, your description sounds much more like a jointer than a planer...4-5" wide would be quite narrow for a planer. The link above also lists numerous jointers,

I think that cutter head would run in the 4500-5000 rpm range. Feed rate depends a lot on the specie of wood, grain structure and moisture content of the board, as well as sharpness of your blades and the capacity of your system to clear chips. Typically planers with variable feed rates range from 0 fpm to 70-80 on the high end for big industrial machines. Fixed feed rate models run between 15-30 fpm

With a 3 blade cutting head you have 15,000 cuts per min @ 5000 rpm. If you feed stock at 10 fpm you have 120 in / 15000 cuts or .008" per cut. As you know, it is all a balance between the speed your cutter head bearings can handle and the power your motor can deliver relative to the feed rate you choose.

I just looked at some specs online for new models, they range from;
Grizzley 8750rpm 3 blade with 26 fpm feed rate
WEN 9000rpm 2 blade with 26 fpm feed rate
DeWalt, 10,000rpm 3 blade, no feed rate given but they claim 96 cuts per inch so that would be about 31 fpm feed rate

None of these specify cutter head diameter.

Not sure if it of any assistance, but there some info from state side.

John

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Originally Posted by bruce.desertrat

You might peruse this page Sears | Craftsman - Photo Index | VintageMachinery.org to see if you can ID it. If you can find the craftsman part number on it you may be able to track it to the OEM and that site has tons of old manuals.

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Many thanks. I have identifird it as a Sears Roebuck 149.21871. It is a couple of decades younger than I thought at 1970s/early 80s. Anyway I couldn't find anything on that site to answer my question. Actually my question isn't really machine specific, cutting surface speeds depend on material to be cut and maybe material of the blades. In the absence of additional information I'll aim for around 12,000 rpm which should give conservative cutting speeds. If the bearings/bushes wear out I'll modify it to take ball bearings.

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Originally Posted by bruce.desertrat

Also, your description sounds much more like a jointer than a planer...4-5" wide would be quite narrow for a planer. The link above also lists numerous jointers,

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It is listed on that web site as a jointer, but I can't figure out what sort of joints you would make with it. To me it looks like a small machine to plane with. I could be very wrong but I think that jointer is likely to be the US term only, but although I have done some pattern making in the past I am not an habitual woodworker.

So what exactly is the difference between a jointer and a planer?

i just found this on Wiki
"A jointer or in some configurations, a jointer-planer (also known in the UK and Australia as a planer ......."

I was born in the UK and grew up in Australia, so for me it's a planer.

I just did a few quick measurements on my 40-yr-old Rockwell/Beaver 6” jointer for comparison: the 3-blade cutting head is 2” in diameter, the blades stand about .150” proud of that so the total diameter is a touch over 2-1/4”. When the 1/2hp 1750 rpm motor blew (in the middle of an actual paying job, as always) I replaced it with the only suitable one I had kicking around the shop because I needed it *right now*, which was a 1hp 1750rpm TEFC motor which is relatively impervious to the dusty environment in which it would be running.

Since I found the head speed too slow with the original motor, I took advantage of the extra power and increased the drive pulley from 4” to 6” and decreased the original 2” driven pulley with a 1-1/2”. This gave me a head speed of 6900 rpm, much better than the paltry 3500 rpm it was running before. I suspect the previous owner probably replaced the actual original motor, which most likely ran at 3450 rpm, with the one that was on it when I purchased the machine.

The massive, high quality bearings on the cutter head are quite capable of handling the upgrades, and the jointer is now far more usable and produces a much finer finish. Prior to these modifications it was something I would use only as a last resort, usually preferring to use my table saw with a jointing jig, because the jointer would leave such a choppy finish, even at painfully slow feed rates, now it is my go-to as it leaves a beautiful, almost polished finish.

I’m not sure if that was helpful or just came iff as pedantic. Hopefully the former.

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Originally Posted by tonyfoale

i just found this on Wiki
"A jointer or in some configurations, a jointer-planer (also known in the UK and Australia as a planer ......."

I was born in the UK and grew up in Australia, so for me it's a planer.

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A jointer is used for flattening boards, a planner is used to get them to the desired thickness. The sequence from rough milled lumber is-
Jointers are used to establish a flat face, then a square edge on a board. then it can be run through the thicknessing planer to flatten the other face parallel to the other. Then the board can be run through tight against the fence to establish an edge square to the faces.

Most jointers also have the ability to create a rabbet on the edge of the board. They also are useful, if sharp & well adjusted, to prepare edges for gluing up large panels.

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Originally Posted by tonyfoale

So what exactly is the difference between a jointer and a planer?

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A jointer is used to provide one straight edge on a board, often in preparation for joining several boards together, which is why it is sometimes called an ‘edge jointer’. The other edge is usually then cut on the table saw to provide a parallel edge to the jointed one. A planer usually employs a much wider cutting head (unless your jointer happens to be a massive industrial version) and is used to plane (obviously) the sides of a board, not only to smooth the surface but also make both sides parallel, and to reduce the thickness, which is why it is often referred to as a ‘thickness planer’.

Hope that helps demystify the names.

Edit: Damn. Haroun beat me to it.

When i get a chance I will look at a book I have that is a collection of articals from the us forest service, there Is a section on jointing planer blades, it may have a some info on surface feet per minute of cutter blades for wood. Barring that I have an old Montgomery wards joiner with what might be a similar size head in it to use as a referance. As long as you do not drive the cutter head so fast that you burn the knives (heat to the point of drawing the temper) the rpm is not overly critical in a non production situation. The wadkin molders where I used to work would jam and stop feeding, the knives would burn real fast. The finish of the molding stock would suffer as a result. In the neighborhood of 1725 rpm may be good if i remember that the pulleys are of equal size on my 6 inch jointer. Hope you find your answer.
Eric

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Originally Posted by Haroun

A jointer is used for flattening boards, a planner is used to get them to the desired thickness. The sequence from rough milled lumber is-
Jointers are used to establish a flat face, then a square edge on a board. then it can be run through the thicknessing planer to flatten the other face parallel to the other. Then the board can be run through tight against the fence to establish an edge square to the faces.

Most jointers also have the ability to create a rabbet on the edge of the board. They also are useful, if sharp & well adjusted, to prepare edges for gluing up large panels.

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Look at the words used to describe these machines,Plane is a geometric term for a flat surface.
"Planer" is a machine that forms a plane on the work passed over it as with a "Jointer",the term thicknesser makes one surface parrallel to the other and does not itself correct non-planer work.
The term planer/thicknesser most likely came from under and over machines or two siders which both have the ability to make a board face a plane the first in two operations on same machine the second machine does it all in one pass be it a 2 or 4 sider.
Confusion over terminology ,especially as the woodworking trade amongst other love to have their own terminlogy, is most likely due to regional usage that evolves and changes with time.

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Originally Posted by tonyfoale

Many thanks. I have identifird it as a Sears Roebuck 149.21871. It is a couple of decades younger than I thought at 1970s/early 80s. Anyway I couldn't find anything on that site to answer my question. Actually my question isn't really machine specific, cutting surface speeds depend on material to be cut and maybe material of the blades. In the absence of additional information I'll aim for around 12,000 rpm which should give conservative cutting speeds. If the bearings/bushes wear out I'll modify it to take ball bearings.

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Do not try to run the cutterhead at 12,000 RPM! you are going to want about 7,000 RPM max with a machine with bushings rather than roller bearings. those high speeds will just tear up the machine You probably want to double your motor speed, In the States it would be 3450 RPM @ 60hz. in Europe running @ 50hz. will run a tad slower

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Originally Posted by Al8236

Do not try to run the cutterhead at 12,000 RPM! you are going to want about 7,000 RPM max with a machine with bushings rather than roller bearings. those high speeds will just tear up the machine You probably want to double your motor speed, In the States it would be 3450 RPM @ 60hz. in Europe running @ 50hz. will run a tad slower

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i have a Hitachi powered hand plane which states 14,000 rpm and which I measured to be 12,900 rpm unloaded. It has an OD across the blades of 64 mm. The Sears/Craftsman is 54 mm. So the surface speed of that at 12,000 rpm will be 72% of the manual plane. That being the case I am unsure as to why you warn against that speed. As I mentioned, if the bushes are not up to the job I can easily convert to ball bearings unless there is something that I'm missing. The limit as far as I can see is heating of the blades.
Is there any reason that eludes me that lets a manual machine spin around double that of a fixed machine?

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Originally Posted by tonyfoale

I have a small and very old cast iron Craftsman planer which I bought at a yard sale when I lived in the US. Other than a "don't cut you fingers off" notice there is no other info with it. The table is 4 or 5 inches wide and the drum is a touch over 2" diameter with 3 blades. The spindle looks as it it runs in plain bearings but I have not dismantled it yet.
Does anyone know what RPM the spindle should spin at? Failing that, can anyone give me a guide to surface cutting speeds for wood, Google came up with a lot of useless info, many planer users seem to be confused between cutting speed and cutting feed.

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I have a jointer similar to what you describe. I found a manual on Vintage Machinery.org Website. It lists the age as in the 1930 era, with the cutter speed at 4400 rpm. Hope this helps.

I just went out to the shop and looked at my power hand plane and my craftsman jointer the hand plane runs at 12,000 RPM with about a 2 to 1 reduction to the cutter head and the jointer runs a 3450 RPM motor with a 2 to 1 Increase to the cutterhead. that is what I am going by. Do what you will but I don't think the jointer was ever intended to operate at those speeds.

Here is the Parts list and exploded view of the 149.21871 from Parts Direct.

Attachment 22600

If it is that model then it appears to have Ball Bearings (2x item 4) and has a 4" drive pulley. I would think the bearing might hold up for a few minutes at that speed but IMHO 12k rpm seems a bit fast for a jointer. Even with a 3450 motor the pulleys around a 6" & 2" to reach ~10K. Personally I would shoot for around 8K Max. Cutter head speeds on larger units (6") is around 8k for a 1.88" head (Grizzly Page7).

Hand held Planers are a different beast and used differently. A Jointer is generally used on wood for taking the crown or bow out of it and reduced sanding for finish. I'm not sure tool SFPM is generally used with Jointers because the "Hand" feed rate of the material is pretty slow so as to get a good finish and the cuts are usually < .0625. Blades are typically some type of HS tool steel. My guess would be W1 or similar to handle the durability issue with a lower HRC. My old "American" (early 70's Taiwanese) WJ-6 (6") will take a piece of 6" Walnut and make it baby butt smooth in 2-3 passes but it has a 1.5hp motor.

:hattip: PJ

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Originally Posted by Al8236

I just went out to the shop and looked at my power hand plane and my craftsman jointer the hand plane runs at 12,000 RPM with about a 2 to 1 reduction to the cutter head

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So 6,000 rpm at the cutter, I measured the speed on my hand version and it was the cutter head that spun at 12,900. Strange that there is such a difference.

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Originally Posted by Al8236

I don't think the jointer was ever intended to operate at those speeds.

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I am sure it wasn't.

So what are the pros and cons of running fast and slow?
I can see that for a given feed rate (manual in this case) the fast cutter would need to make a smaller cut which would reduce the blade load but on the other hand the blade would heat more due to the speed. The power requirement would probably be higher but that is of little concern to me because I'll just put a suitable motor on it, but of course it would be of concern to a manufacturer because it would increase cost.
What about finish, does a fast moving blade give a smoother cut?

I seem to have opened a can of worms with my inquiry, but I don't like to just accept things in ignorance. I need to know why.

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Originally Posted by PJs

If it is that model then it appears to have Ball Bearings (2x item 4) and has a 4" drive pulley. I would think the bearing might hold up for a few minutes at that speed

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Yes it has ball bearings and they would have no problem taking that speed. My only mechanical concern with the speed would be balance of the drum, although that isn't a problem with my manual machine. A problem could be with the stock size and type of V drive belt, one would need to run small pulleys to reduce belt throw out but stock V belts are not great with small pulleys. I will use a small poly-V belt which would handle the speed and torque with ease.

So I have no mechanical concerns about running at high speed, the question is still "what is the best speed to use?" and I am no further down that road.

Many thanks for taking the time to dig out the sketch. In fact thanks to everyone who has replied.

The first 3 small jointers in the grizzly catalogue are as fellows
1 7/8" 2 knife cutter head 10,000 rpm
1 7/8" spiral head (inserts) 8,000 rpm
2 1/2" 3 knife cutter head 5,000 rpm
My personal approach would be a tad slower than faster, less chance of burning the knives with a slow feed rate. At times a slow feed rate is most desirable with tear-out prone or wild grain wood, especially with straight knives.
On a side note, and this may start a row, but I have got the best results from my 6 inch jointer by jointing the knives by hand. (Jointing knives is running a sharpening stone along them with the head spinning, commercial industrial machines such as molders have a built in means of doing this, not only can the knives be sharpened during a production run with out stopping the machine but the knives are cutting all equaly ) many may say it is to unsafe but using the out feed table to guide the stone seemes to be safe enough and the results good enough that I will do it. The results are good enough that I am planning on making a setup to hold a stone with mabey linear bearings for my planer. Don't mean to start any thing but the results have been impressive getting all the blades cutting dead equally.
Hope some of this helps.
Eric

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So I have no mechanical concerns about running at high speed, the question is still "what is the best speed to use?" and I am no further down that road.

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In Post #3 hemmjo (John), in speaking about a "planer" (US) with auto feed rates that have "recommended" feed rates and that the types of wood, grain structure, moisture content, sappiness etc. will all play a role in "Feed rate" based on head size. I see this no different than mill or lathe working metal working but these still have multiple subtle parameters that need accounting for, like tool geometry, rake angles, sharpness, rigidity, etc, etc. There are formulas for sure, based on material of Known "types" grain, hardness etc., but they are still guidelines in effect and tend toward User experience on the whole as to how to perform a certain operation.

I tried to have a further look for recommended optimum speed info on wood working and wasn't able to find much either. There was/is some information on blade speed/SFPM for wood bandsaws but other than that it seems to be black art or guess and bi-golly. The manufacturers must have some info or empirically determined this info long ago...like metal machining and it's being brought forward.

"Jointers" (US), especially home shop types are typically single speed with hand feed. This tells me that if we look at what is out there for "Speed/SFPM" for these type tools, it should be a guideline or Starting point as many here have stated. If someone wants to try something else "Out of the Box" to learn or other intended purpose, that may be worth pursuing. My issue is always about safety, and a ~1 pound drum with 3 semi-exposed blades held in with set screws, spinning at 12K with marginal bearings in a 60-70 year old casting "Feels" a bit riskier than I would be willing to experiment with. All be it not much different than laying a knee on the pavement at 2+G's at 120+ mph in a corner. However a good builder would always magniflux the crank of a 12K machine prior to getting on the machine himself...nothing like a hand grenade at 120+.

The only other suggestion I have would be to chat with Brendon here on HMT if he is still around or on his website. He is one of those who's little finger Forgot more than most know about wood working.

:hattip: PJ

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Originally Posted by PJs

In Post #3 hemmjo (John), in speaking about a "planer" (US) with auto feed rates that have "recommended" feed rates and that the types of wood, grain structure, moisture content, sappiness etc. will all play a role in "Feed rate" based on head size.

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The info that I found seemed more concerned with feedrate and scallops per inch and then sfm only insofar as it affected the scallops per inch.

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Originally Posted by PJs

I see this no different than mill or lathe working metal working but these still have multiple subtle parameters that need accounting for, like tool geometry, rake angles, sharpness, rigidity, etc, etc.

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With metal we have fairly well defined limits for efficient tool speeds. Too slow and generally you blunt the edges too quickly, too fast and heat becomes a problem. I was expecting/hoplng that limits for wood would be just as easily available but it seems like the wood community is less concerned with sfm. In a commercial environment the same principal consideration for metal and wood must be production rate. The faster your sfm the faster can be the feed and higher the production rate. I would be very surprised if the wood cutting industry wasn't just as interested in this as the metal cutting world.

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Originally Posted by PJs

I tried to have a further look for recommended optimum speed info on wood working and wasn't able to find much either.

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That's why I asked here.

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Originally Posted by PJs

"Jointers" (US), especially home shop types are typically single speed with hand feed. This tells me that if we look at what is out there for "Speed/SFPM" for these type tools, it should be a guideline or Starting point as many here have stated.

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It was the search for a starting point that led me to measure the speed on my hand held planer. That was 12,900 rpm with cutters at an 18% greater diameter than the Craftsman. At 12,000 rpm the sfm would only be 78% of the hand plane which is why I thought it to be conservative. Actually the label on the plane says 14,000 rpm but that would have been on UK electricity, the voltage here in Spain is a little less which is probably why I measured 12,900. I know that other hand planes spin at around half of this but I think that this is probably due to motor power. My Hitachi has a 700 watt motor.
I find it hard to accept that the sfm of a fixed machine has to be around 1/2 that of a manual machine.

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Originally Posted by PJs

If someone wants to try something else "Out of the Box" to learn or other intended purpose, that may be worth pursuing. My issue is always about safety, and a ~1 pound drum with 3 semi-exposed blades held in with set screws, spinning at 12K with marginal bearings in a 60-70 year old casting "Feels" a bit riskier than I would be willing to experiment with.

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I am probably somewhat less risk adverse than the average but I have no wish to get hurt either. Regarding your specific points; I don't know why you regard the bearings as marginal. Bearings of that size are rated for much higher rpm and the loads are well within limits. Actually the casting is much younger than your estimate but I don't think age is important, the machine looks like it has never been used.
Your point about blades being held in with set screws is the one that does concern me more than anything else, and if I decide to run it fast I would do some calculations first, all I can say, at the moment, is that I have never had a blade fly out of the manual machine.

At this point in time I am totally undecided whether to run the thing around 6,000 or closer to 12,000 rpm. This will never be a highly used tool for me and I only want to make it once, so the safe way I guess, would be to opt for the lower speed range but the hot rodder in me is reluctant to accept that without some real data. Getting real data seems to be much harder than I expected. I have to decide soon because I promised to build a green house for her indoors. I have tools to do that job without the planer but it seemed to be the right motivation to get a tool going that I have had gathering dust for close to 10 years.

I get it Tony, that it will be used occasionally and likely on softer wood for an indoor green house. Also get it about the correlation to the hand planer speeds and ratings. My point about the bearings should have been clarified.

Just because a bearing is rated at some speed based on being sealed or not and what type of lubricant doesn't mean the rest of the system is rated for that maximum or under load because bearings are off the shelf items to fit a myriad of purposes. Additionally the Static and Dynamic loads play into that rating system. Not sure how I would rate the bearing loading of hand fed wood on a Jointer but think it may be higher than expected...again guessing on wood quality, but do know my 6" old iron gets with the program depending on depth of cut and will slow down slightly and get a trashier finish if I get too aggressive.

An example of bearing rating is my 1950 Craftsman/King Seeley Drill press uses 6202 and 6205 bearings...basically all 6200 series are rated at 13k-24k rpm with a static load of 3750N and Dynamic of 7800N (plenty for a drill press). Mine were rubber sealed, original and 65 years old, therefore rated at 13k, 65 years ago. It came with a middle pulley system that would allow speeds from 310-9835, meaning in new condition they would run at ~75% max...plenty of safety factor from an engineering standpoint, however the 5/8" spindle if out of round or bowed or the taper chuck wasn't true would likely would play havoc at those speeds and be worrisome...to me. Also the RO/balance of the 3-5way pulleys, one a splined pulley on the spindle...belts, motor, etc...it's a system. If I wanted to use circuit board drills occasionally I would probably be ok with that...if the RO is within reason and very light loads. Soooo your 78% may be valid if the rest of the system will handle it, but have no clue what the system speed originally was that I could find.

I too have often wondered about this topic for wood working and would love to understand it better. Then I realize most wood working is esthetic and tolerances of 1/16" and finishes in the 125-250 range or greater, instead of metal working to thousands or tenths and finish down to 8 that we have worked with for many years. Inquiring minds!! Hopefully someone can enlighten us all.

Had another thought if you have one laying around. Depending on motor type, perhaps put a single phase VFD on it and set your pulley/belt system up to match that 12K speed and experiment with it. If the VFD can be set up for constant torque it would be good...just another thought?

Either way good luck in what ever direction you choose and do look forward to seeing what you come up with. Hopefully it doesn't discourage your motivation to get this done so you can tackle the green house. ~¿@

:hattip: PJ

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Originally Posted by PJs

I get it Tony, that it will be used occasionally and likely on softer wood for an indoor green house.

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Indoor greenhouse? That's a new one on me. No, it will be outdoors.

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Originally Posted by PJs

Hopefully it doesn't discourage your motivation.

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Never.

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At this point in time I am totally undecided whether to run the thing around 6,000 or closer to 12,000 rpm. This will never be a highly used tool for me and I only want to make it once, so the safe way I guess, would be to opt for the lower speed range but the hot rodder in me is reluctant to accept that without some real data. Getting real data seems to be much harder than I expected. I have to decide soon because I promised to build a green house for her indoors. I have tools to do that job without the planer but it seemed to be the right motivation to get a tool going that I have had gathering dust for close to 10 years.

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Guess I misunderstood. Looking forward to what you come up with.

PJ

I have noticed that many machinists who make the transition to woodworking have trouble with the lack of "specifics" when it comes to working with wood. Many fine woodworkers do not mess with minute details or speeds and feeds, they just do what works. Wood is much more forgiving that metal.

I turned to the American Machinists Handbook, by Colvin and Stanley, McGraw-Hill for information regarding your question. First printed in 1908, I have the 7th edition, 1940, that was my Dad's. It is well worn, has masking tape and a rubber band holding it together. It had a special place in his machinists tool box, in the top along side his sine bar, and 1,2,3 blocks. He was a machinist with the Curtis-Wright aircraft company, then North American Aviation, then North American Rockwell, then Rockwell International, as the companies merged over the years.

There are only a couple of references in the AMH regard to wood. Attached is the table of contents, Speed for Drilling p. 126, Turning speeds p. 898, and weights of various kinds p. 1104-1105. (Note that the Table of Contents is incorrect. Turning speeds is in reality located on Page 999) Perhaps you can use these values to determine a reasonable speed for your purposes, as other materials are also listed in the drill speed table. The percent of difference between materials for drilling should be about the same for "milling" as you will be doing with your planer/jointer.

Attached are photos of relevant pages.

Thank hemmjo, I never thought of the Machinist's Handbook, I have the 17th and 26th editions.