The Philosophy of What We Do

good afternoon.

i don't know where to start. please bear that and the fact that this is totally out of character for me as you read. i am thankful for your understanding.

i am beginning this thread in response to a fascinating discussion i have been having with Ken Balch, which is here: http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/y...-party-now-140

since i am the fng and not real sure of the rules here, i asked Ken and he suggested starting a new thread here. so this is it. if it blows up in your face, blame Ken.

among other things that impressed me, Ken wrote:

"Couldn't agree more. I strongly believe that we all have something to learn from each other and that each individual, from the newest builder to the most experienced, has seen and learned something of value for himself and the rest of us, if only he can identify and communicate it."

that part about identifying and communicating concepts got me to thinking real seriously about many things, and not those strictly confined to metalworking and/or woodworking. however, for these purposes i will confine at least my end of this discussion to the things we build.

how does one look inside himself and identify what that 'something of value' is? communication aside for the moment, how do we know?

if you read the thread referenced above you know that i have been around both the internet and metalworking forums for a long time. i have seen lots of stuff come and go. i have seen various forums wither and die because they became sort of secret clubs for a chosen few and you had to know the super secret handshake and have the even more secret decoder ring to be a part of the inner circle.

what these people have done is create a place for the free exchange of ideas and knowledge for everyone, at least as far as i can see. now it becomes our task as members to carry on with that concept. when you come down to it, the sticker on your lathe doesn't matter. what *DOES* matter is the parts that come off of it. i have a 'no name' Chinese lathe. it took a lot of work and frustration beyond belief, but it turns true and the controls feel 'silky', if that would be descriptive. i also own a couple of Cincinnati mills and a [very] old Steptoe shaper which might be for sale. my youngest son has an x2 mill he has converted to CNC. he continually bitches about my 'wore out machines with all sorts of backlash', but the parts that come off these machines are always 'good' parts. i also notice that when he wants to cut something very heavy he tends to do it on my machines.

i digress. i apologize. i am told i do that a lot. please forgive me.

the thing i am trying to get at is how we can preserve that exchange of ideas and knowledge. manual machining is a dying art. it is sad because in so many ways that is what has made this country great, but those of us who know how to make things and fix things have become a breed apart. i realize that there are still 'job shops' around, but how many are there today in comparison with 10 years ago? 20? 30? 40? is anyone brave enough to admit to remembering 50 years ago?

my younger son attended a 2 year vocational machinist course when he lived in Indiana. he has said many times that he has learned more about actual hands on machining from me than he did from the school. he has also said that the main emphasis was on CNC work as opposed to actually cutting metal. i guess you can figure out that his comments made me feel pretty good because in my opinion he is a pretty good machinist. he could single point threads when he was 10. so i felt pretty good. but it also scared the hell out of me to think that what is being produced, at least in that 'machinist school' is a bunch of button pushers who know very little about what they are actually doing. in many ways the manual machinist is what has made this country great. in the 1940's people did machine work in their homes. in the 1960's we sent men to the moon with less computing power in total than my cellular telephone has in it. the nuclear bomb came about because a man with an idea could communicate that idea to a man who could make the parts of it.

i can imagine those of you who bothered to read this far wondering, 'when is this idiot gonna get to the point?' well. this here is your lucky day

my point is this: How do we, as members of this site, and as keepers of essential knowledge, both identify and communicate that knowledge to others?

i challenge each and every one of you to do this every chance you get. i challenge you to find that kid who has the spark and teach him what you know and then to find a guy who knows more so he can go on to learn there too.

i challenge each of us to continually expand our own skill set and knowledge so that we have that much more to pass along.

i challenge all of us to go about this with good will to all and malice toward none.

i wish all a pleasant weekend.

peace.
normalbill

Wow!

Just found this site, literally my first time clicking around, even more of an fng than you, and I know with these sorts of forums you're supposed to read first, and comment later, but what a wonderful set of questions!

I'm "even more" of an fng because I'm not even really a builder--I went to school for history and philosophy, and I've worked in auctions and restaurants (who didn't see that coming, with a degree like mine?).

Your questions are all wonderful ones, ones that I think about all the time. My wife is in education, and we have a couple of tenants studying to become teachers. Sometimes, in their more conspiracy-minded moments, they declare that the public school system is designed to produce workers, cogs in a machine, not thinking, responsible adults. But I work with kids all the time. If school's supposed to make good workers, cogs in a machine, it does a piss-poor job of it. And I've had cooks in my kitchen from culinary school, and they're no better, even if I don't have to teach them how to make a roux. To put it simply, I think the problem is this: in our culture-in our world-the End is ranked higher than the Mean.

By this I mean that people don't think about where they are, they think about where they're going. Pretty much every kid I see come through my kitchen is going to become a famous moviemaker, or musician, or, rarely, a famous chef (those ones don't work any harder or better than the others, unfortunately). I notice that people always talk about what comes next, about the next thing they're going to buy, about how they need to work out more, or eat less bacon (or gluten, or salt, or cucumbers, or whatever's poison that week). Of course you can't help but think about the future, and it's not a good idea to ignore it, but you can't live there. Gotta live in the present, warts and all. Gotta do your best in the job you're in, with the tools you have. That's all you can really do. But people don't know this any more.

I'm not sure of forum rules yet, but I'd like to suggest a book that I read recently: Shopclass as soulcraft, by matthew crawford. Beautiful book. Written by a former think-tank guy who gave it all up to be a motorcycle mechanic. To be honest, reading it a few months back I can't say exactly what the man's argument is, but I know that it speaks to your question: in this book, he mounts a fierce--and deep--defense of the manual arts. Please check it out.

Anyway, I don't really have any answers to your questions, just some thoughts on the matter...

And I accept each one of your challenges. Whole-heartedly.

good evening, Mr. Vermonter.

thank you for your reply to my delusional ravings. we seem to share some similar observations and opinions.

i would carry your opinion of the schools a step further and say that they do a piss poor job of everything they attempt. our schools have become holding pens for kids. they sure as hell aren't teaching much. kids are being graduated who are unable to read, write, spell, do simple math, are ignorant of basic geography, have no interest in the running of the country, and are only marginally qualified to operate a cash register at a hamburger joint. you can look around today and see the results of this in our government. the presidency has become a popularity contest and the best way to become popular seems to be promising more free crap to people too ignorant to realize that it has to be paid for somehow.

one has to look a lot in order to find any kind of trade school. as mentioned above, one of my kids had to go to indiana to find one and he says that there was very little taught while he was there. he has told me several times that he learned more about machining from me than from the school he went to, with the exception of cnc stuff which i don't do.

and these kids seem to want to walk into an upper level job right out of school even though they are far from academically, emotionally, or mature enough to be prepared for even an entry level job.

i am old. i won't live a lot longer. this is not a complaint. i don't think i would want to even if i could because i fear both what the world and our country both have come to and will come to in the future. had i known that it would be like this i would have thought a lot more about bringing children into it. as much as i love and enjoy my children, i feel that i have done them a disservice bringing them into such a screwed up world.

thank you for the book recommendation. i will look for it when i am next at the book store, which will be next week. my doctor is in a different and much larger city that has much better bookstores. i have to see her next week so i will make a day of it.

my purpose with my original post was to stimulate some thinking and hopefully a meaningful dialog about what we do and why. apparently that didn't happen. one reply in 3 months. consequently, i am also thankful to you for your reply. at least one person has read and considered what i had to say. i have always thought that if one man could be shown a new concept then the world has been changed. perhaps now others will enter and contribute to the discussion. it is a nice thought anyway.

have a good evening.

peace.
normalbill

Well, I tell you what, normalbill: you can pass on everything you got to me, I'd be happy to learn.

Hi Normabill,
I am also new to these forums, and I don't really know what made me read your post, but I did enjoy the read, and whole heartedly agree with much of what you wrote. I live in South Africa, and the training of new artisans here is almost non existent, it seems like the new generation is just not interested in any kind of work where there nimble (nimble from x-box and keyboard manipulation), delicate little hands might get dirty, and heaven forbid, they could pick up the odd cut on a sharp edge, and actually bleed a little, horror of horrors! Some years ago, the government in their unquestioned wisdom, decided to do away with the apprenticeship system here, and we are now reaping the results It was very easy to shut the system down, but now that they think just maybe it was a mistake, and that it would be good to get it going again, that is not quite so easy. Some time ago, maybe about 10 years, I remember hearing a frightening statistic, that the average age of an artisan in SA was something like 51, so what is it now? I am 55, and I am very aware of being part of a dying breed.
Speak to youngsters nowadays, and ask them what they want to do when they leave school, and the answer from 90% is extremely predictable - IT in one form or another. Granted, it is a diverse field with a lot of opportunities, but surely there must come a point where it is over populated, and I can't help but ask myself the inevitable "Yes, but who is going to do the actual work?" What I mean is, who is going to produce goods at the coal face, or will computers take care of everything? Worse still, will all manufactured goods come from the far east? I can't help remembering the words from an economics talk I once heard, where it was stated that there is only one thing that grows an economy, exported goods! Now if we are all wheeler dealers, shuffling papers, buying and selling, banking, IT'ing, we are going to be doing so in an ever shrinking economy, while China becomes the worlds manufacturing powerhouse, and therefore the major world power, a sophisticated and well equipped army runs on money!
Ok ok, I know I'm rambling now, but reading your post did touched on a few sore points. If you think your education system is bad, you should see ours. One can still get a good education at a private school, but the vast majority of the population don't have that option, and the state schools annually churn out millions of illiterate youngsters who can't add 2 numbers without the help of a calculator. they have zilch chance of employment in the formal sector, and have no skills to do anything on their own. Their only hope of employment is an unskilled labor job in a factory, at minimum wage, and for most, a career in crime is far more attractive, even though it is often a short career. I don't condone crime as a career, but the sad truth is that the state has badly failed them on the education side. Of course, the kids of the politicians responsible for this terrible state of affairs, only attend the best private schools that money can buy.
Ok, let me stop here before I get onto a political rant, I know I have gone off on a tangent, and not come close to answering the questions you posed, and now I have to go, maybe another time.
Regards,
Grant Wernick

I'm giving away my age but this reminds me of that 70's best seller "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintainence"!

Just found this site, literally my first time clicking around, even more of an fng than you, and I know with these sorts of forums you're supposed to read first, and comment later, but what a wonderful set of questions!

I'm "even more" of an fng because I'm not even really a builder--I went to school for history and philosophy, and I've worked in auctions and restaurants (who didn't see that coming, with a degree like mine?).

Your questions are all wonderful ones, ones that I think about all the time. My wife is in education, and we have a couple of tenants studying to become teachers. Sometimes, in their more conspiracy-minded moments, they declare that the public school system is designed to produce workers, cogs in a machine, not thinking, responsible adults. But I work with kids all the time. If school's supposed to make good workers, cogs in a machine, it does a piss-poor job of it. And I've had cooks in my kitchen from culinary school, and they're no better, even if I don't have to teach them how to make a roux. To put it simply, I think the problem is this: in our culture-in our world-the End is ranked higher than the Mean.

By this I mean that people don't think about where they are, they think about where they're going. Pretty much every kid I see come through my kitchen is going to become a famous moviemaker, or musician, or, rarely, a famous chef (those ones don't work any harder or better than the others, unfortunately). I notice that people always talk about what comes next, about the next thing they're going to buy, about how they need to work out more, or eat less bacon (or gluten, or salt, or cucumbers, or whatever's poison that week). Of course you can't help but think about the future, and it's not a good idea to ignore it, but you can't live there. Gotta live in the present, warts and all. Gotta do your best in the job you're in, with the tools you have. That's all you can really do. But people don't know this any more.

I'm not sure of forum rules yet, but I'd like to suggest a book that I read recently: Shopclass as soulcraft, by matthew crawford. Beautiful book. Written by a former think-tank guy who gave it all up to be a motorcycle mechanic. To be honest, reading it a few months back I can't say exactly what the man's argument is, but I know that it speaks to your question: in this book, he mounts a fierce--and deep--defense of the manual arts. Please check it out.

Anyway, I don't really have any answers to your questions, just some thoughts on the matter...

And I accept each one of your challenges. Whole-heartedly.[/QUOTE]

Hi NormalBill,
I totally understand where you are coming from. I used to work in the Automotive field some years back & was actually taught how to diagnose a car my self (computers on cars were very new). Now my nephew works on cars & he can't figure it out with out a code reader to tell him what's wrong with the car. Problem solving on a car (at least any modern cars) is a dying art as well. I have helped him in some ways to learn how to diagnose a car without one. I also have a feeling he may be asking me for more advise when he starts into the father son project truck (1953 Chevy step side) he picked up.
I will take up the challenge by the way only because I have taken up the challenge on my own. When I was running my dad's shop awhile back as the head mechanic I would always get asked by my buddies to help them fix their cars (still happens BTW). The secret (at least that I have found that works for me) is to not do it for them, make them do it. I would tell them that when they get the parts to bring it over to my house (as long as I was there) & as long as the car did not stay forever (major work had to be set up in advance) they could use my tools & equipment & my reference manuals (unless I did not have their car in a reference manual) & I would help them diagnose & to the best of my ability instruct them on how to diagnose & repair a problem. Oops, as you can see I tend to ramble a little also (HUGE GRIN). Any who, to shorten it up a little, all I did was try to encourage them to use their own mind to fix the issue & one or two I had to start from scratch (I.E. Teach the theory of the 4 stroke internal combustion engine as well). It also taught me valuable lessons in being able to communicate my skill set to them.
This is a very well thought out start of a thread. No "idiot" that I ever met would write it in such a way as to get me thinking like you have. I did not even realize I already thought & acted this way until you brought it to the fore front on my mind, So Thank You very much (GRIN). I have a very varied skill set. Automotive you already know, I also weld, woodwork, metalwork (Old School & learning CNC; Want to build my own CNC router (GRIN)), Electrical, Electronics (Just Reflowed the solder on an XPS laptop video card), Plumbing, House repair, oh heck just a jack of all trades, master of as many as I can be. I would also bet that if you really look at what you do in general you will find other things you have already started to learn how to do without even realizing it. For instance, teaching your son how to do single point threads when he was 10. That right there is totally awesome in my book. I wish I had a Dad that would have taught me stuff like that, but then I think about it & I realize my Dad just taught me a starting skill set that was based on his interests & just as varied, so I will just learn it on my own. He is a retired Electrical Engineer. Oops, see here I go rambling on again (GRIN). I am eventually going to make my own woodworking lathe & I was contemplating making it so it could be used for turning metal as well. Any info you would like to pass on would be appreciated & any I have that you may like I would gladly give in return (HUGE GRIN). Have fun in your shop.

normalbil,

You asked an excellent question "my point is this: How do we, as members of this site, and as keepers of essential knowledge, both identify and communicate that knowledge to others?"

My answer is that I volunteered at a local community college and helped teach introductory engineering. I got a lot of freedom when it came to lessons. Much of the class is hands on and the problems have no answers in the back of the book (what book?). The students build payloads that are attached to weather balloons. They go up as high as 95,000 feet before coming back down for retrieval. The payloads contain sensors of their own choosing, cameras of their own choosing, and a data gathering computer that is made from a circuit board that they etched, drilled, and populated with parts. They must live within a time budget, a money budget, and a weight budget. They are also forbidden to include a sensor unless they first pose a question that can be answered with the data collected from this sensor. At the end of the class, they each give a presentation so they get some public speaking experience.

One day the volunteer job abruptly vanished. They hired me as an Adjunct Professor. I now enjoy the same great freedoms, fun students, and have a little extra money to pay for my other hobbies.

rgsparber,

Your story is heartwarming and inspirational. I would love to teach/share some of the things I've learned over the years. Most of my experience is as a car fixer/car restorer who is fiercely independent. I really don't like taking my car in to have it fixed, when I should and can do it myself. A bit of that feeling comes from having professional mechanics mess things up on occasion. Heck, I can do that!

I'd estimate 99% of the homemade tools I've crafted result from needing to remove something from a car. It's fascinating that cars like Porsche require tons of "special" tools. A cottage industry has developed just to support home mechanics who won't spend $300 for a special one-use tool.

My son and I were discussing this issue and he mentioned the typical problem, which is that auto manufacturers don't engineer fixing their cars when they design them. He had a car that needed a whole host of unrelated engine parts removed just to get at a spark plug. Today, he has a fairly new Jetta which allows him to change the oil filter while standing normally over the engine compartment...and not spilling a drop of oil. This I've got to see!

Anyway...I appreciate the interest here in passing on the knowledge you have gained...usually the hard way. I always seek opportunities to prevent someone from learning things the hard way. The suggestions are usually very well received.

Everyone...Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

Dave

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daveward

...auto manufacturers don't engineer fixing their cars when they design them.

---

A very common problem and not just with auto manufacturers. I've seen the same on modern motorcycles and aircraft. It's poor engineering, plain and simple. When I built my airplane, I very deliberately planned various installations with service in mind. Since I was going to be the mechanic down the road, it paid to minimize eventual inconvenience from the start.

These days it's obvious that manufacturers don't even want home mechanics working on their cars. Try lifting the hood on a new Mercedes or the rear deck on a Porsche - you won't see much of the engine, that's for sure. Just the oil and windshield fluid filler caps, most likely. I can't say whether that's built-in job security for factory techs, proof against ham-handed DIY'ers, or both. Probably both.

Too much design is being done in CAD by young engineers who've never built anything with their own hands. If they can get it to "fit" in the software - and it's buildable - they call it good without a thought of service after the fact. Frustrating for guys like us, that's for sure.

Ken

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kbalch

When I built my airplane, I very deliberately planned various installations with service in mind. Since I was going to be the mechanic down the road, it paid to minimize eventual inconvenience from the start.

These days it's obvious that manufacturers don't even want home mechanics working on their cars.

Ken

---

Don't get me started!!! Ooops. Too late!!! I appreciate that this is supposed to be a philosophical discussion...and I'll get back to that. But first: one of my other pet peeves is this. You all, no doubt, do exactly what I do. As I begin a repair project and I bring out tools I leave them in a convenient spot because if I used them once I'll need them again before I finish. Now, after years of experience I can quickly tell if the project will be Metric or SAE and I have a fairly good eye for which bolt head requires which wrench size. But...when manufacturers use different sized or different shaped fasteners to mount one component, it makes an enjoyable hobby or task frustrating. One one project and on one component I might end up with several long and stubby wrenches, short and deep sockets, adaptors, extenders, swiveling things, and don't forget the prying tools, the flashlights and inspection mirrors.

I often try to imagine how much time Americans spend trying to figure out what size tool fits what size fastener. There is much to be said for a designer who can say: "you can work on my product with a 3/8" wrench...that's all".

Just last night my wife said that a food product she was opening could never actually be purchased and used by the owner of the company. One shouldn't need a sharp implement to get into food products!

As for philosophy, when I get the chance to chat with eager learners I always suggest they consider the next time they have to work on the same part they are working on now. For example, thinking about the homebuilt airplane example above I'd imagine things like easy access and labeling things were important considerations. Again...our experiences can be helpful if we find ways to share. Sites like this and others really can make a difference.

Would not being able to service cars be the reason why I prefer old school builds? Probably. I like working on my own stuff and that, sadly, is a trait I don't see much of anymore.

Dave,

So how to we get the people eager to learn in front of those that have a huge amount of practical knowledge? I wonder if the Maker movement is part of the answer?

Rick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rgsparber

Dave,

So how to we get the people eager to learn in front of those that have a huge amount of practical knowledge? I wonder if the Maker movement is part of the answer?

Rick

---

Hi Rick,

Your reputation precedes you. I must admit that I had to GOOGLE "Maker Movement" after I read your post. I shouldn't render an opinion of the "movement" (although I am tempted) when I didn't even know about it ten minutes ago. More research needed. As for answering your first question about linking people together, it’s a real challenge.

The old fashioned way was to offer a class at the community college. The new way is to publish your own blog or webpage. If it is interactive, you (the teacher) will get a bit of satisfaction when you get questions or comments that demonstrate the student gets it. But, it won't at all be like having a student in a face-to-face relationship where you can watch the proud gleam in his eye and the broad smile when he (she) shows the teacher the latest accomplishment.

So, it will be different. Which is too bad. I suppose I could write a book. No…you see that and writing a blog doesn’t give the teacher the opportunity to fine tune the message when the student gives you the look…the look that says “I don’t understand”. The look that you respond to by saying what you said another way, or offering another visual demonstration.

Rick, I would give my right arm, or some valuable body part, if I actually had 15 interested learners to share with. Face to face. It would be great fun.

Dave

Here is another way to stoke interest in hands on things: collect a pile of broken appliances that are safe to take apart. No vacuum tubes or toxic chemicals. The best kinds require few tools to open and have a lot of mechanical stuff inside. Then get a bunch of young kids with at least one parent in attendance. Put a pile of hand tools in the center of the table and stand back. Be available to answer questions and loosen the occasional stiff screw. Otherwise, stay out of the way.

You will kindle the excitement hidden in the kids and most likely rekindle the excitement in the parent. We have had times when it is necessary to give some parents their own broken appliance because they took over their kid's project.

Excellent idea, Rick! As a newly-minted grandpa, I'd like to "train" my grandson to work with his hands. He's very deft with using iPads and smartphones, but drops the stuff when I start tinkering. So, the innate interest is there. Using non-working appliances and then encouraging a kid to repair it would be a great start.

The key to this learning exercise is to not impose a goal on the kids. They might be thrilled to just be able to open the device and proudly walk away with a few screws. That's fine. They will be back for more when they are ready. The only place I stop the adventure is if they start to horse around and become potentially dangerous.

Haven't you taken things apart to get parts to make something entirely new?

This thread has been moved to the Must Read subforum. Congrats (and thanks) to normalbill for making such a valuable contribution!

btt. Thanks for a very thought provoking read. I have to agree with everything that's been said. Down here in the lower south pacific the powers that be did the same thing and dismantled the apprentiship system. Now there's a huge hole in the engineering industry. A lot of which is being filed by imigrants which is fine for industry but leaves our kids with nothing but white collar options. The schools are not helping the situation with a predominant idealogy of you have to go to university to achieve your potential.

Oh boy, oh boy! Where to start? Another fng here, but I'm not too bashful so I'll just throw right in. I'm not gonna try to organize this and it's gonna be something of a ramble, but there seems to be others like me here. As I was reading this thread I knew I would have to respond because so much said is near and dear to me. I scribbled some notes and am going to respond in such order as I found things without resorting to pulling up quotes.

1) My wife's onetime aunt worked at Rocky Mountain Flats nuclear installation as a draftsman. For several years after her retirement, they kept calling her back to do on paper what the kids couldn't do on computers with the fanciest of CAD programs.

2) I may catch flack for this, but oldtimers have been complaining about 'kids these days' ever since there have been 'kids' and probably since there have been 'days.' And they've been saying for just as long "They just don't build 'em like they used to." In my experience in the building and cabinet trades, especially from remodeling, I know this: There have ALWAYS been butchers out there--it's just that their stuff hasn't stood the test of time, only the well-made stuff is still around. And someday soon those 'kids' are going to turn into the oldtimers saying the same things. Our responsibility is to pass on as best we can what we have learned to whoever is willing to learn it. My 20-year-old just started working part time at the cabinet shop where I'm employed. He's doing well and I think it is likely that he will stay there even after he finishes auto tech school, mostly because he has learn that modern mechanics is about diagnostic machines and electronics: He is a hands on guy. He will continue to do well because of the work ethic he has learned at home. I've had the pleasure of training others like him, but so many who end up in the trades are there because of personality flaws, the druggies, the flakes and the lazy asses. Schools see the trades as yesterday's news and steer the 'good' ones to where the money is. There have been a couple come through that I encouraged to go to specialty schools like College of the Redwoods or North Bennett Street School but those kids are few and far between.
3)The categories of workman are something I've long thought about. I've come to this conclusion. There is a hierarchy in the trades: laborer, craftsman, artisan, and artist. We all start at the one end, and hopefully, achieve some higher station. The one thing sure is that respect is earned by the WAY one works, not the job in which he is ensconced.
4)I echo Lou Gehrig when he said "I am the luckiest man alive." I was well on the way to a teaching degree when I figured out that academia wasn't for me. I was lucky to land in the building trade, but wasn't smart enough to recognize that I had found my passion. I strayed away, tried going back to school, did factory work and supervision and finally by accident found my way back to cabinetry. Now I am accomplished in my trade, respected by bosses and co-workers, and happier than I deserve. To anyone who isn't as happy, I can only say "Find your passion!"

5)Regarding complaints about schools these days: Much of what's wrong with schools today, IMHO, lies in three areas. First, schools today are expected to do much more than simply educate. In the modern family where economic necessity demands two incomes, much of what is expected of teachers falls into the category of 'child-rearing.' Second, there is way too much emphasis on sports and activities at the expense of academics. In the small high school my son attended about half of the staff were coaches of some sort and their value as coaches far out-weighed their worth in the classroom. Third, the endless mantra of testing and 'accountability' driven, at least in part, by conservative politics and liberal sensibilities, means that educators have a greater priorities than teaching and learning.

6)When my son finishes his automotive degree, the starting wage in that industry will make his two years at tech school almost worthless. People keep preaching about the jobs available in the trades, but so many of those jobs don't pay a living wage to start. Until wages for working folks improve, our status as a nation will decline. ( Sorry, trying to avoid things political.)

7)I, too, found myself thinking of 'Zen and the Art . . .'

8)'Designers who have never built.' Boy, that raises some hackles. Our designer at work has no sense of proportion at all. I get a line drawing and then have the wonderful task of fitting her ideas into some semblance of reality. GRRR!

9)A lot of teachers, both in schools and out, fail to teach the basic logic of their subjects. I learned more about algebra from a 1930's textbook than I did in school in the '70's. If my teacher had started out by explaining the '=' in the middle and what it really meant, everything else would have flowed from there. The same teacher did much better with geometry because he assumed we knew nothing at all and he was right. As an English major in college, it was not until a senior level class, English Language and Linguistics, that I was finally exposed to the flawed logic that imposes Latin grammar (highly inflected) on the
English language which has very little inflection left from its Teutonic roots. English, because of its emphasis on word order, has an elegant logic to it that few seem to understand. In the end it works much like algebra with the verb being the '='.

OK, my ranting and raving and rambling are done. Nice to meet you all.

Best,
Tom

Tom,

Initially I was put off by your warning plus the length of your text. But ended up reading and agreeing with all of it. Nicely written!

Rick

Thanks, Rick.

There was an interesting article in the KC Star this AM that dovetails nicely with some of what has been discussed here. It's available at Subscription & Delivery Info | KansasCity.com & The Kansas City Star. Look for Cindy Hoedel's column, 'KC Furniture Business . . .' Some of 'what we do' may need to transform from larger to smaller business formats, but I firmly believe that quality, hand-made products will always be in demand at some level.

Best,
Tom

Oops! I guess they won't let me link like that without everyone having subscriptions. T
he gist of the article was that a guy who was one of the premier custom furniture builders in KC gave his business to a young guy who had done an unpaid apprenticeship with him. The young fellow had wanted to learn hand woodworking after getting an art and design degree. There are places for handcraft and there are still people willing to learn it if we can just connect those with knowledge with those with desire.

Hey there from another new guy. Even though im not quite 40 yet, i see evidence of this everyday as a service manager for a bus place. Kids here who are "trained techs" think im some kind of special fabricator because i can weld and actually build or rebuild parts. Its disgusting, what i do would be common sense and expected in shops in my dads day or they wouldnt have a job. But all these "tech" schools are turning out are parts changers now.

BMW realized this problem and they have come up with the ultimate solution (and end of decent paying skilled tech jobs). Its a set of goggles that literally diagnoses the car (from the scantool of course) then points on the goggle screen- loosen this bolt with a 10mm wench and turn clockwise. Basically you could give the janitor a pair of these goggles and he could do timing belt change in the same amount of time as one of their "certified techs). Its officially the end of an era im afraid.

I think the Maker movement is the logical progression of what started on YouTube with guys like mrpete222 and oxtools, and cncnyc and tons of other. Mr. Pete/tubalcain is the man. Taking his lifetime experience of being a machinist then shop teacher and in his retirement, pouring it all into video lessons that are just excellent.

I learned long ago when I couldn't find anybody who could teach me jazz guitar that I just need the info in a good organized manner. It's my effort that makes the difference. A teacher would be great, but if I couldn't find one I'll take a good book. And now even better is a video.

I'm not a teacher but my impression of young folks is they have only been trained to be consumers. And have been bombarded from a very early age to be ADD. Watch tv. Ever notice that the scene and POV change every 9seconds or less? This is by design and it trains the average person to not be able stay with anything. To make anything takes time, thought and planning. But more and more I'm seeing the other end of the spectrum what has been called Aspergers Syndrome. My son being one. They don't have the need for social interaction and are focused more than probably seems normal. With him it was all about finding what he was interested in(besides video games) and fostering that interest. As long as I found the proper starting point and kept ahead of him with the next part of what he needed to learn, he would just chew through what most of us regular folks would take years in months.

He worked with me at a YMCA camp one summer when he was 12, living in a tent with teenagers. I was the maintence director and he saw first hand how out in the boonies you could do good if you applied some forethought and was aware of everything around you. Knew something was wearing out and going south so the next time you were in civilization you get what you needed to fix it when you got back. This dillegence led him to the realization applied hardwork pays off.

He discovered anime at this time and wanted to be able to draw those characters. I got him a little book "How to draw Marvel Characters". He worked for hours and hours out of that book trying to draw stick figures on computer paper he would take out of my printer. As I was walking by and looked at what he was doing he looked up at me with tears in his eyes and said "I'll never be able to do this". I said "Chuck, art is like anything else 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.....its just hard work." I thought such a worn out platitude would just bounce off and be dismissed but he just looked at me a long time as that sunk in and went back to work to my surprise. As soon as he had that down he asked me what he should do next and I told him the thing that tripped me up was anatomy. I found "Anatomy for the Artist" a huge hard bound book being blown out for cheap for him and he spent years working out of that. He's worked for Marvel and DC and Darkhorse and other comic co's. And what sets him a part besides his expertise in anatomy is his background is manual art, not digital. Both of which is in short supply in artists his age.

How can these young folks not come out thinking that they shouldn't be living in a house like they grew up in and everybody on tv is living in? Along with all the stuff that comes with it? I think a lot of us didn't grow up in a world that seemed to be so magic. Where even the poorest person seems to have a cell and a huge flat screen tv.

My kids grew up without any network tv and saw us struggle to make ends meet. I stayed home with them until they started school because as a mechanic I didn't have health insurance or a wage that could support a family of four but my teacher wife did. They still didn't have a perception of what the world of work is or what it would be by the time they got there. But both of them don't have the short attention span that seems the norm nowadays. More than anything I wanted them to be critical thinkers and to me that's where the schools have failed. The aim it would seem is just manufacture consumers. I found the 6pt doc "the Century of the Self" by the BBC on YouTube very interesting.

My "problem" was I wasn't raised a consumer. My grandparents were farmers and that made my parents more self reliant I think. And our high school had a track system that put kids of like IQ in the same track so I wasn't educated as a consumer. So I kept coming up against the fact that what I wanted was most times not available or as often as not of poor design/quality. When people talk about freedom, sorry, I don't see it in the marketplace. I see "stuff" but often I have to modify or change the design because that's all that available. I've tried to offer my "improvements" to the manufacturers but either they don't value it or nobody is really paying attention. I'm just glad the net came along and there are places like HMT where I can learn and share my creative approachs to get 'er done and hopefully others can get 'er done too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daveward

As for philosophy, when I get the chance to chat with eager learners I always suggest they consider the next time they have to work on the same part they are working on now. For example, thinking about the homebuilt airplane example above I'd imagine things like easy access and labeling things were important considerations. Again...our experiences can be helpful if we find ways to share. Sites like this and others really can make a difference.

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Hey dave your response totally made me remember my 1st mentor at a hotrod shop, he sold me 67 mustang and told me i could restore it at his shop, and if i paid attention, he would hire me after.

I was so frustrated by him constantly getting on to me about labeling everything i took apart and putting it ziplocks by part (left fender bolts etc.). I swore he was just an old man with OCD, then when i was all done and putting everything back together i realized "hey this old guy really knew what he was talking about i would have never remembers what bolts went in this fender" lol.

Then he taught toolbox organization and taking care of my tools. And how much faster you can be if you actually take 10 minutes at the end of every job to put things back where they belong.

Now years later (when im alot slower after years of the infantry beating up my body) i let one of my best young techs live with me for a month while he was saving up for his 1st house. We were out in the garage working out of my box and he saw the value in it 1st hand. My servicewriter was also there (another young guy) and they were teasing me about being old and slow, so i made them a bet we would both take apart his door and replace the window motor, under time. Needless to say even though he was much faster than me, the 20 minutes he took looking for tools in his box and the extra 10 minutes using the wrong tool because he couldnt find the right one, i beat him by a solid 10 minutes. The next day at workhe came in 2 hours early to organize his box. Lol. It made me feel pretty proud though that i helped the wayi got helped.

I guess that I am no longer a new guy and I am for sure not one of the longtime members Tonight is actually the first time I sat and read this thread.
This reply is going to be long and I hope not too boring
I must say there have been many valid points brought up structured towards the explanation of what is wrong in society as a whole today.
However I feel we have so far not fully addressed one of the root causes of how the USA for one has strayed from a builder society to a consumer society.
I believe much of it started with the advent of the production assembly line mentality. Latter spurred even further by the Unions workers on assembly lines were taught very specific skill sets related to the job at which they were to work at and hardly ever cross trained to other tasks.
TO explain this form a personal experience A young man once came to my shop desiring employment I was busy with 3 lathes going all manual by the way so I asked my wife who at the time had a band saw and a radial drill press going to aske the man a few questions about his skills and how he felt that his becoming an employee in our small machine and fabrication shop would be an asset to us.
He started in telling her that he was a long time member of the local ### whatever and that he had been a welder for 5 years on an assembly line in **** company.
OK, she said you say you are a welder did you bring your hood, gloves and a few other tools so you can take a welding test?
No I don’t own any tools or a hood I never needed my own at **** company they furnished everything.
I see, she said weld what type of welding can you do can you use a stick welder as well as a mig welder or how about a tig welder?
UH, I don’t know he said all I have ever done was use a spot welder.
What else can you do besides run a spot welder? Just a minute I have to reset the band saw and change a bit on the drill press.
I took shop in school but haven’t done anything like they taught us since I went to work for **** company.
Well we really need a couple of part time welders who can weld light tubing and some structural steel, all none coded work so you wouldn’t have to worry about being certified Frank does all of the critical welding that might require coded welding Would you like to take a simple welding test? Just a minute, Frank do you want me to have him take a welding test and could he borrow one of the hoods in the office?
Yeah OK I said.
How do I turn on the machine?
You flip that switch right there and hold this gun simply pull the trigger when you want to weld.
Well after he had wasted countless feet of welding wire and shorted out 2 contact tips he finally managed to burn more holes in the 2” sq. tubing than he made welds, My wife concluded that he just wouldn’t work out in our small shop. I finished with what I was doing on the lathes and rook a few minutes to give him a few pointers on how to weld. After a few more false starts he managed to be able to make a fairly decent bead. We hired him for part time work A year later when he was called back to the company that his Union had been out on strike for He went from being a line spot welder to a Plant maintenance trouble shooter /repairman.

So pleased to find this thread; but not surprised. The HMT.net impact is personal; whether as contributor or receiver. And both sides mention desire to foster interest in the young. There is a pool of such students available, beginning with middle schoolers, that extends right through high school. The program is literally worldwide.
Familiar with or heard of Dean Kamen? He's a remarkable engineer, with all sorts of recognizable products in use. I believe he was producing a medical product in his parents basement before graduating high school. Around 25 years ago, he set out doing exactly what this thread leans to. Mentorship is keystone of his organization, and YOU have skills needed by students drawn to their local build site. He addresses the same issues identified in this thread; by connecting desire with a well (perfectly) developed goal structure. That desire might be just a spark, or a established skillset. Very little "everybody's a winner" PC nonsense, the rewards are attained, not just passed out. It even holds an extensive scholarship program. You'll be amazed at who's who in the corporate support; realizing education alone is not going to repopulate an aging workforce.

FIRST Robotics Competition | FIRST

At this site; the opening picture is a hint. One (or more) of those kids almost certainly never had handled a hack saw, seen a caliper, threaded a nut and bolt together, wired an arduino, or helped to create a semi-autonomous robot. This isn't BattleBots, because the rounds continue from local to world finals, but I guarantee, every bit as tense. Failure or breakdown doesn't create instantaneous elimination; the kids are so enthused to re-enter I've seen near complete rebuilds between rounds. Even if they're drawn to participate other than in mechanic/ technical aspects; successful teams are composed to conduct a 'business unit' 'safety team' 'inventory control' 'documentation' even 'advertising' groups.
That's why YOU have skills that will benefit a team. And then a few weeks later, poof it's done! And next year, many team members return. They'll enter a meet that utilizes a specific but attainable set of regulations. FIRST (capitalized and bold as a trademark) characterizes the atmosphere as one of ''coopertition", mashing up cooperative competition. The general game occurs every year, but the task changes.
I'll urge any interested parties; gauge their commitment to expanding our family of craftspeople and contact a local team base via the site.

I have been reading posts in this forum for some time, and I think this is the first time I have replied/posted. So much of what I have read I find I am in complete agreement. I find that too many of our young people lack skills or even an interest in learning to advance their personal interests. I have been an engineer for 42 years and I contribute much of my success to my pre-engineering life. During those years, my duties involved helping my father with many projects. I recall one day he came home with a new (new to us but removed from a house scheduled for demolition) with a new furnace. I was his helper, but I knew nothing about installing a furnace. The amount of learning was huge. I learned things I still apply today. I think this translates into my engineering skills. I am a power systems engineer, designing really big current carrying components, which can be though of as a macroscopic version of printed circuit board design. Those skills I learned in my pre-engineering days show up in my present design projects. Some of my best young engineers working for me had a similar pre-engineering life of working with Dad or something similar. It is all about knowing how to think. I believe that thinking process is something innate in the individual and has always been there. I have remarked to my associates, "I don't remember not knowing that" which I explain as innate knowledge. That earlier post on finding your passion and following it is probably nothing more than matching that innate ability to a profession.

Some years ago, I taught part time at a local community college. I wanted the students to learn why, but some of them were only interested in looking in the book to find a similar problem to aid them in answering the homework questions. Those students would never push themselves beyond the present. That position did not last too long, as I was told the students did not like the "why" approach. The "why" approach is also illustrated by the tools in their place and a place for everything. See, it all fits together. Following that experience, I was involved with a local college's continuing education program. The "why" approach worked well there because most students wanted to know the background. Unfortunately, the program did not generate sufficient revenue and my contribution was no longer required.

I summary, I can agree with everything which has been written here. Today's children do not make their own way. Too much is given to them, and they are not required to forge their own way and that is unfortunate. Today's philosophy says, "there is an app for that."

I have been reading posts in this forum for some time, and I think this is the first time I have replied/posted. So much of what I have read I find I am in complete agreement. I find that too many of our young people lack skills or even an interest in learning to advance their personal interests. I have been an engineer for 42 years and I contribute much of my success to my pre-engineering life. During those years, my duties involved helping my father with many projects. I recall one day he came home with a new (new to us but removed from a house scheduled for demolition) with a new furnace. I was his helper, but I knew nothing about installing a furnace. The amount of learning was huge. I learned things I still apply today. I think this translates into my engineering skills. I am a power systems engineer, designing really big current carrying components, which can be though of as a macroscopic version of printed circuit board design. Those skills I learned in my pre-engineering days show up in my present design projects. Some of my best young engineers working for me had a similar pre-engineering life of working with Dad or something similar. It is all about knowing how to think. I believe that thinking process is something innate in the individual and has always been there. I have remarked to my associates, "I don't remember not knowing that" which I explain as innate knowledge. That earlier post on finding your passion and following it is probably nothing more than matching that innate ability to a profession.

Some years ago, I taught part time at a local community college. I wanted the students to learn why, but some of them were only interested in looking in the book to find a similar problem to aid them in answering the homework questions. Those students would never push themselves beyond the present. That position did not last too long, as I was told the students did not like the "why" approach. The "why" approach is also illustrated by the tools in their place and a place for everything. See, it all fits together. Following that experience, I was involved with a local college's continuing education program. The "why" approach worked well there because most students wanted to know the background. Unfortunately, the program did not generate sufficient revenue and my contribution was no longer required.

I summary, I can agree with everything which has been written here. Today's children do not make their own way. Too much is given to them, and they are not required to forge their own way and that is unfortunate. Today's philosophy says, "there is an app for that."