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What happened to actually showing how you built it? Can go to Google images to look at brag pictures all day long. Show me how you got there. Site has gone down hill since adding all the extra crap and plans for sale. No one just shares their ideas anymore gotta put up plans for sale. Which doesn't look like it took off so well
Unfortunately, I have to agree with you tj. I joined to share my builds and learn from the talented and skilled folks around here. I understand when someone's taken a great amount of effort and time to knock up a decent bit of kit from scratch, which would of course benefit from a set of plans to follow and probably be worth every penny too but now everyone is doing it (even stuff made from scraps lying around), its robbed the site of its core spirit.Quote:
Originally Posted by tjroberts43
I for one will still be documenting my builds to post and share regardless, but it sucks to think I'm not likely to learn anything new from here now :(
I moved these two posts from this thread: https://www.homemadetools.net/forum/...-hacksaw-51914 into our Site Suggestions and Help forum.
I understand it can be frustrating to see a tool that you'd like to build, without accompanying details. I started this entire website based on that same exact frustration.
However, if you want more details on a build, please ask for them politely. We encourage people to post their builds, even if it's just one pic plus one sentence; the idea value alone is very useful. Needling our builders for more details isn't acceptable. However, you're welcome to needle me to alter site policy if you want. I've been running forums for 17 years and the resulting thick skin has made it very difficult for me to ever get insulted :)
tjroberts43 - sites go up and down hill all the time, and I appreciate your feedback. However, every metric we use to measure user happiness has increased lately, including tool builds, forum posts, registrations, and pageviews. Nevertheless, good criticism is still extremely valuable. What do you see here that you don't like, and how would you like to see it improve? If you were the admin tomorrow, what would you do first?
Canobi - thank you for your feedback too. The more negative the feedback is, the more important it is to us. Plans sales are increasing, and authors are starting to make real money. We even have free plans available. However, less than 1% of our members are selling plans, and that even includes the people whose plans we are now editing for upcoming inclusion in the marketplace. I'm confused by what you mean when you say "everyone is doing it". Let me know, and your comments might spark positive change.
FWIW, the irony is not lost on me. You both want people to give more details on their builds, and I want you to give more details on your feedback. On that point, we are in exact agreement.
I'm particularly annoyed by this quote...
"No one just shares their ideas anymore..."
Many of my posts are ideas meant to simplify or improve the performance of some task. Any one with reasonable shop skills should be able to construct his own version without the need for any plans or poorly edited videos.
It might help if tjroberts43 gave us some examples of what level of instruction he's requesting with his statement...
"Show me how you got there."
If that's meant to include such fundamentals as:
drilling and tapping
silver soldering
rudimentary turning and milling practice
it's unlikely anyone will produce a post to satisfy his needs. No post is going to include a full course in wood or metal shop fundamentals.
This is not to say that more detailed instruction isn't required on more complex posts. The obvious solution, though, is for tj to ask for what he requires in the specific post.
Global criticisms are seldom well received.
If I may interject here, as one from the other side of the fence so to speak. Picture this:
You need something you can't afford or is not offered anywhere.
You gather all your accumulated parts, learn some new skills and make the tool. As an after thought because you never really thought about sharing it, you take pix. You're not sure how to show all the details that would show what you did, or if anybody even gives a damn, or even what size pix to post.
You post them and watch as there are very few views, 1 or 2 "thanks", if your lucky a comment from the VERY FEW participants on HMT. Even though you see 375 viewers looking at the forum. And your post slides down the list under the Avalanche of posts, only to be seen for an instant again as DIYer thanks you and adds your post to your tool page.
Your tool now resides in its obscure digital cubbyhole accruing "requests for plans".......???? With no comments.......are these real? Who is the mass unseen tide? They join, give their terse "hi" and join the digital Avalanche never to be heard from again. If you DID make some plans would these ghosts actually buy them?
I joined because #1 the few who actually interact(percentage wise) are supportive and enthusiastic. And it never occurred to ask for plans, I wanted the ideas and they are here in spades. There is no drop in ideas since the plan ideas came along, in a certain way it feels like the sheer number of posts have gone up. I for one appreciate "thanks", comments and feedback. I'm glad to answer questions and show details, but that almost never happens. And when there's no response I just figure nobody was interested.
Probably should have spelled everything out in minute detail. I meant by no one sharing anymore because most posts are now I title with picture and maybe a video and the statement I built this. That's great but but no dimensions or materials or anything. Kind of hard to go with a picture (usually crappy) and that's it. The show me how you got there means show me how you came up with a solution to build it. I know everyone has different materials available that is understood but show the process of building it. Some basic dimensions. The process you used to come up with the construction. The work around for for not having certain tools to use to come up your solution. Sorry for opening my mouth about this issue since I like to learn new ways of doing things or different ideas on things. I'll just fade back to the background. Since I'm not as smart as the rest of the popularity contest of who can make the most crap. Sorry to waste your time.
I look at a post most of the time and see something I like I click on it and all I get is a picture I built this. I'm not going to stay there and waste my time begging for plans or waiting for who knows how long to get a reply of this is the only pic I have. If you didn't take pictures of the build why post it? Because you want a pat on the back or want all the people begging? If I'm looking for something I have a need for it and don't want to waste hours trying to find what I'm looking for.
Even if you present your criticism imperfectly, it still has value, the same way that someone presenting a build imperfectly still has value.
Our university's law school often has lectures and talks about startups; they are constantly going on about how important it is to gather criticism from users. I will say that "need more details" is without a doubt our #1 criticism here. This is why we added the monthly Best Documented Build award, so that we incentivize documentation. Same deal with the Plans market. It's difficult to convince people to put in even more work, but if we offer them a reasonable payment, or reward, or even greater recognition among their peers, they will consider it. It's not a terrible idea to add a similar Best Documented award, granted on a weekly basis. The downside is that I don't want to discourage people from posting their tools, if all they have is a pic plus a sentence. Someone can take that fragment and run with it, leading to a more detailed build by another user, and then another.
We've even recently added a one-time-per-visitor corner popup survey to non-forum pages. It asks for a 1-10 rating of the site, and then it follows up with some "how to improve" questions. The ratings are very high; also known as Net Promoter Score, anytime your "promoters" (those who gave a 9 or 10 rating) are over 50%, it's a great sign. If you sort out the junk comments, you can see the "more details" theme. These ratings and comments are anonymous; we don't know who made them, and we don't care. We've only had this up for a short while, but here's the data we have so far:
https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/h...creenshot1.png
https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/h...creenshot2.png
https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/h...creenshot3.png
C-Bag makes a good point about engagement. We know that around 90% of visitors to forums simply don't post; it's an exaggerated application of the Pareto principle. One advantage we get from encouraging votes, likes, or "Want a plan" buttons (that one needs work, I know) is something called a micro-conversion or micro-engagement. The hurdle of registering, introducing, commenting, then posting a tool is significant. So we have to offer opportunities for people to dip their toes in first. Users who make even the slightest engagement on a site are far more likely to then eventually register and make great posts.
Reading Jon's charting illustrated some conclusions for me; except #8 & #10, not able to read Cyrillic or know who 'noel' is. LOL.
Postings are dependent on at least 4 elements. Remember there are countless years of experience considering all 14,000+ of us; inhabiting what appears to be every continent - the variety of languages not withstanding.
1st: Author's ability to write descriptively in either technical or common vocabulary. Like public speaking, know your audience.
2nd: A reader's vocabulary should be close to the author or willingly research unknown terms.
3rd: Illustrations [photo or drawing] are best for details, if certain items of clarity are considered.
4th: Placement in correct category including reasonable 'tag words', so posts appear in a variety of searches. Perfectly related is using search function logically vice shotgunning.
The entire discussion fits recent personal experience; during new employment actions. First off, to the Consortium [a certain few adopting this label] I'm in a new shop; pretty decent place doing what is generally industrial repair. Past two weeks have made parts for or did repair for different equipment everyday. I thrive on variety. I wrote a few weeks back "isn't just a hobby" no matter what your level of involvement. Real creativity, engineering, and fabrication isn't the blueprints and perfectly equipped shops. It's producing desired results with that at hand, in your basement or for a company with bills to pay.
Anyway the interview process elsewhere was sharply divided between HR directed type sessions and sit-downs with owner or supervisor. I'd warrant comparison would separate them in some type of 80/20 manner as well.
The 'Theorists' are witless toads dependent on every means of interpretation, sorting, elimination and micromanagement imaginable. The Know-Alot's use experience conducting interviews and handling of employees in general.
In one group I was able to nail every interview; the other had to submit collected information to another channel.
One is having lunch with a new friend, one is more like an interrogation. Pathological liars could pass either with correct vocabulary but fall flat on shop floor. Poser in aisle 5, clean up please.
On the other hand, 'We' get asked 'how to' this or that first or second day...That is a benefit of this site in particular, virtually a world-wide shop floor.
There is always room for improvement but there seems to be quite a few new "faces" in the new tool section posting. And I've seen a couple of new folks say they were longtime lurkers, even registered before and were compelled to post. While I certainly don't want this to turn into a compulsory thing it certainly helps folks go from a peanut galley back seat driver to a contributor.
I didn't understand it was supposed to be a blow by blow site when I joined. I thought it was more about ideas and not until I jumped in did I start to get how to make a post that conveyed those ideas. My first problem was how to take pics. Not until I started using my iPad to take the pics did I get the sizing where it was clearer what I'd done. Then seeing some of the excellent posts the "usual suspects" posted did I more get what was intended. I still don't have plans to completely document a build as its still not part of my creative process, but I believe I've gotten better at presenting details and my cognitive process for the build.
One of my ongoing problems is trying to find something in the archives. Case in point is the rod bender PJs posted a while back. I found the original while wandering in the archives. It was I think from one of the welding sites that gets harvested into here. I went to find it again and couldn't do it through the site search. Not until I did a deep search of my history did I finally find it again! Unfortunately my history got wiped in a virus attack and I tried again and can NOT find the original. I even went through all the archives one by one.
Is this the post for which you searched?...
http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/r...cheerful-52684
Just to test my search-fu, I went to the advanced search page and searched posts and forums for anything containing the word "bender" and authored by "PJs". The URL above was the first item in the list returned by the search engine.
When you search, try to search for words that the article might likely contain, as opposed to some guess at the title of the article. As best you can, pick words that are longish and relatively uncommon. "bender" isn't super uncommon but when you combine that with the specified authorship the number of possible results drops dramatically. You're almost certain to have a result list that can be eyeballed in a few seconds.
Searching is arguably the most useful aspect of the personal computer. Learning how to construct self-narrowing searches to exploit that utility is very worthwhile.
In complete agreement with Mr. C-Bag. The web generates more content than possible [or needs] to be absorbed. Not being savvy to I-pads etc, my access is via laptop so saving what ever is double-easy; the trick is sufficient depth in folders/ sub-folders being correctly itemized. Subsequently, I delete history all the time; mostly because I re-title tabs to suit precedence of 'filing' anyway.
Compared to how many paper & pen authors there were historically, is effectively zero now in relation to the ability of anyone/ anywhere/ anytime to generate web content. I'd guarantee not two of those have precisely same resources; in ability, hardware, or software. To even out that field will not likely occur; well run sites like this take care of most technical issues. Personal limitations remain. We probably don't account for a learning curve in participation. The same parameters exist in 'our' work spaces. On one hand, mere "I made this" posts could use a bit of detail; but at the same time this isn't a patent office. I cannot decide whether step x step or just an outline is superior...One satisfies those needing instant gratification, the other fuels creativity. As an individual, I'd have to say I use both of them within confines of expenditure & need in first decision of 'do it now or save for later'.
Even here on HMT.net, great projects have less than perfect adaptability. Whether they ignite anew or generate solutions; that is what elevates us all.
Nope, I was trying to find the original that I made mine from. From which I then sent pics of my build to PJs to give him the idea to build his. I am on other forums that use this "model" of website and I have a heck of a time finding what I'm looking for through the search function I don't remember what the original post from the archives I found called his a bender, or ring roller or what.Quote:
Originally Posted by mklotz
I don't have the same problem with Google I do with these forum searches......a lot of times I just use google instead and it can most times find what I was trying to find. I'm beginning to wonder if the guy deleted it. Unlike here on HMT he had a ton of responses and feedback on his "ring roller/bender" whatever he called it.
In total agreement there TM51! I've gotten so many good ideas and fixes here it's just staggering. This is where I spend my breaks from my self imposed nose to the grindstone. So I'm always a bit perplexed when I see like the OP and others complaining that there is somehow some sandbagging going on. Granted there seems to be some who post extremely brief "look what I did" posts, but I believe they are in the minority. Having only been here a year I have no idea how it was before so I can't comment on that. But I was here before the "plans" got launched and I didn't notice a change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toolmaker51
Another trick is to use a large search engine like Google to search a specific site. The syntax goes like this:
site:homemadetools.net bender
If you want to restrict your search to the forum only, since all of our forum pages include "forum" in the url, you can do this:
site:homemadetools.net inurl:forum bender
But then you'll get a lot of member profile pages and tags pages in the results. We know that those respectively have "members" and "tags" in the urls, so you can do this:
site:homemadetools.net inurl:forum -inurl:tags -inurl:members bender
This isn't always perfect; sometimes Google won't index pages that individual forums will.
Who remembers the Yellow Pages?
Good luck finding anything unless knowing closely what it was called or who did it. Some categories had 'Also look under...' that might still take another few stabs. Much like the couple years spent in retail; an auto parts store. All the info crammed into a 4' rack of catalogs. Then some kid would come in with brake shoes or some such.
Q. What car are they for? A. Well, it's blue and a big engine...
Fully believe some personal ability to research past blind process of elimination, more as a detective, is grounded in those days. Marv is exactly right, searches of personal files or the net, hinge on operative terms. I'm going to figure a way to convert Jon's three examples of syntax into copy/paste format - infilling specific terms. Seems like a good use of bookmarks.
Just occurred to me; not all the projects reside within HMT.net proper, calling to modding the search.
You can also create custom Google search engines (CSEs) that will search a predetermined list of your choice of websites. It's like combining multiple "site:" syntax searches in one. You can do this for hundreds of sites. So, for example, you can search 100 forums with a single query.
Interesting, the Dewey Decimal Card Catalogs are seeing a resurgence. Trendy furniture stores are even selling new "Library-style" storage cabinets. I'd love to grab an original one at a garage sale and use it for fastener storage.
Whelp, Seeing as I just found this thread (been busy with other stuff) I feel somewhat obligated to chime in. Lots of good stuff said here and can see some of the points of TJ and Conobi are trying to broach, but it does feel a bit like sticking a square broach in a round hole without specifics or suggested examples. It can rub one the wrong way without some perspective to the task at hand.
1. Jon and C-Bag hit it on the head with the Pareto principles (80/20). Personally I almost always ask questions when I post a comment for 2 reasons: first is I want to know something; second to engage the builder and others in thoughts and other ideas. Those are some of the best parts of the forum along with the comradery and spirit of those 20% who Do participate, IMHO. Even if it "Hi-Jacks" a thread I still feel great value in the direction a thread takes sometimes because I usually get "Bonus" info, on topic or not, IMHO. (This one included) I also feel the "Ghost's" laughing or getting something from it as well. Additionally, if I don't ask a question I almost always, Thank the Poster when I get something from or just admire the build. I'm probably guilty of Thanking to much but feel strongly about giving recognition to something well built or well said...and it's good manors.
2. TM51 (Congrats!) hit the nail also with his 4 points of posting, particularly the first 2. For me I'm generally a bit verbose but do have a style I try to hold here whether it's curmudgeon, technical, or my general old school ways and verbage. I enjoy the variety of styles and languages that abound in this huge diverse population. The key to me, is to have the alacrity to dance with it and learn something new every day, whether I like it or not. Jon's initial response to TJ and Conobi is and always has been to make the forum better by thanking and asking questions, then responding accordingly (like the Plans radio button Bot issue). When he first proposed the Plans for Sale I was definitely the devils advocate on that thread and was outspoken in my worry that it would drastically change the forum that I have enjoyed and gotten so much from. Interesting that posting is still up for all to see and read, and shows categorically what this forum is about and how Jon has grown it to what it is...and it hasn't affected the forum negatively, but added breadth and opportunity for all 100% and then some, IMHO.
3. Frankly I have found most other forums are more "Clique's" by a long shot and the participants give & say even less by a longer shot. Again it comes down to posting and quality. I find that only about 25% of the click away postings here have anything worthwhile to me because of that and I'm pretty eclectic and broad in my want to learn. The ones that I do like I usually give a star rating and have posted short comments to them. The most powerful thing in this form is being able to ask a question. C-Bags memory of the bender and being able to describe it and show me his version was the absolute epitome of Value this forum has for me. I would have still been banging my head or begging on a street corner for change to get my Hollower's built for a friend...and comes full circle with the idea of sharing creativity, knowledge and ideas freely and the choice to help a friend on multiple planes. Can't get there easily without a place like this and the people who Participate in it.
Marv & Jon, I've never used the "Advanced Search" and just tried to get to it but can't seem to find it. I'm kind of with C-Bag on using it without much success, particularly on specific builders, that I know built something but can't seem to get there with my syntax. Thanks for the tips Marv & Jon but would like to learn more, if I may.
Thanks for the great thread and putting up with my spew! ~PJ ~¿@
Go to the Forum page and, near the top on the right, see the box into which to insert a search string, with a small magnifying glass icon to its immediate right. Just below, in rather light script, it says "Advanced Search"Quote:
Originally Posted by PJs
I have so many tools listed that I find it easiest to use the Advanced Search to locate one of my threads than search through my own bookmarks.
As an example, my infamous 'rivet in a key thread'. I know I called it a "tactile" something. Now the word "tactile" isn't going to occur in very many posts so if I combine a search for that word with my own forum member name, mklotz, I get only two returns and the first one is the one I want.
It's also worth spending some time reading about Google search formalism...
11 Google Tricks That'll Change the Way You Search - Motto
Many of the techniques used by Google are implemented in the search syntax of fora and other internet entities.
That's worth a bookmark; at least until I edit the web text into notes. Have used some of them before; but like horseshoes, don't use them occasionally and expect to recall at any instant.
And Dewey cards are precisely the 'format' that inspired my use of MS excel for priority lists, via 'sort' feature.
Because KayBee IBM Keysort cards have become too collectable these days!
Google recently removed a feature by which you could restrict your searches to forum discussions. It was under the "More" menu, alongside Maps, Books, Flights, Apps. There are some workarounds.
You can use inurl:forum, since many forums include "forum" in most of their urls. Most forums (not this one, because we paid a fee to remove it) include the name of the company that writes the forum software in the page footer. For example, some common ones are vBulletin, phpBB, and XenForo. And, the words in those company names are uncommon; they won't occur normally on other web pages. So, you add those brand names to your search. You can separate different words with the pipe character (often found above your return key on your keyboard) to indicate "or".
And of course we can enclose a phrase (like "disc sander") in double-quotes, to indicate that we're searching for the phrase "disc sander", and not the word "disc" and also the word "sander".
So, a sample search would look like this:
"disc sander" vbulletin|phpbb|xenforo
Thanks Marv and Jon...I've begun a new education after trying some of your search techniques and finding the advanced search here. (guess I couldn't see outa 1 eye or hear outa the other) :p Jon; perhaps the Advance Search could be bold/italics and in the base template for all pages?? The google Search link really opened my eyes to the possibilities and the double edged sword of SEO....quite a Rabbit Hole as C-Bag puts it and a bit more than the Dewey Decimal System. ;)
Here is a bender, which may be the one C-Bag was thinking of? It was on page 5 of the search for site:homemadetools.net bender via google and HMT. Interestingly it led to one of the offsite links here, then to Home Model Engine Machinist Forum.
Unfortunately it also points to the issues with other forums I mentioned above and may reiterate TJ's original complaint. Although not on this forum it has a flavor "Here's what I built" - Pic worth a thousand words. However for me, I get the idea of it and would build something with the same principles to fit my needs, as I did with C-Bag pointing me in a direction I thought might work. It also fits with what Marv says about giving too much detail on a simple mechanical process and that the people of that forum are likely machinists, having fun doing miniatures and can easily Punt to get what They Want from an Idea. As for the guy asking for plans...it's OK I feel if those exact operations are what they are looking for and they are a novice machinist or neophyte to the world of miniatures, unfortunately no response by the builder was visible. The bottom line is it's plenty enough for me to head down the road I want to go, without a lot of verbiage.
We're not all engineers or physicists, or machinist and most of us are just home shop builders of whatever we need to do to accomplish our projects, and bring forward our ideas. The magic is the alchemy of transformation from bits and pieces to something functional, sometimes elegant but almost always creative from a new perspective and need. Fortunately, here we have a huge membership of extraordinary builders and visionary's that excel at sharing their talents and wherewithal with the Pool. All one needs to do IMHO, is ask. I certainly have and Grateful for all the responses...this thread included!!
Many Thanks again, Marv and Jon for lighting my candle once again. Always Grateful! :clapping::hattip: ~PJ
Allow me to reinforce PJs' suggestion that the "Advanced Search" button be made a bit more visible, either by font size, color, or position on the page.
I've been a member of MEM from its inception and can say that many of the build threads have become quite boring to me. Endless pictures of parts in lathe chucks, drills about to enter a part, or taps partially buried in a part don't do much for me. Occasionally there will be something a bit out of the ordinary and that's worth discussion but much of the build is typically, well, stuff you need to know how to do if you're in the hobby of building miniature engines.
The folks who need a detailed plan to drill and thread a hole have to recognize that they have a responsibility to learn the basic skills on their own rather than requiring every contributor to re-explain minutiae that are usually regarded as common knowledge. Learning those skills may require taking courses and/or patient reading and lots of practice but you can't expect it to be repeated with every new idea proffered for consideration.
Good call; I've just enlarged and bolded the Advanced Search text. Let me know if that's looking good in your browsers.
I'm wondering if I should cook up some custom Google search engines. We've already completed a lot of the legwork; we can just use the sites listed here: HomemadeTools.net -- Thousands of Homemade Tools - HomemadeTools.net . Then we can label the sites: Woodworking, Metalworking, General, etc. Then you could search, for example, 30 woodworking sites at once.
Along similar lines as have been mentioned: I think I'm going to cut out the less techy new tool entries that come from other websites. For example, I think it's fine to have a few lumber rack builds listed here, but there's minimal value gained in adding the 50th one. Also, the builds submitted by HMT forum members are increasing so much that we don't really need to add builds from other websites unless they're high quality.
Much better with Firefox, Jon.
In addition to stock racks...
clamps
table saw push sticks and sleds
paint stirrers
mallets (wood or metal)
bandsaw/router circle cutting jigs
unless really innovative in design or application
As one who has one cheek in each world of old hand and silly noob on different subjects and different forums, I get where you are coming from Marv. But if a site just becomes a place where only the pro's can contribute its going to dwindle and die I guarantee. Been there, watched it happen. This was beat to death on one site I've been on for 14yrs. And what it really finally came down to is, nobody is making anybody look at everything. We have choice. And the OP could have asked questions that were a little more engaging but didn't feel it was worth the time. What do you do with that response? I don't know how anybody realistically expects to get good at anything without putting in some time and asking question. But if he was expecting to get a terse response or no response I guess I could see the point. But everybody I've asked questions to on HMT have gone out of their way to respond in a supportive way.Quote:
Originally Posted by mklotz
It was too bad because I've gone through threads that not until questions that jumped the original track did it get interesting for me. And I'd be surprised if those alternate universes are going to show up in a search no matter how advanced your search.
I've not had time to spend on the search criteria yet but so far nobody has found that thread I was looking for. It's based on that exact HFT drill press vise.
Thanks Jon, looks good in Firefox (49.02)...how about the root template (all pages)? It's also nice to see that HMT is top of the list but interesting the drop off after the first 5 or so. Obviously there are a lot of innovative creators here but somewhat agree with Marv about the inane builds, particularly from other sites. I'm not sure I understand your "Cook up some custom Google searches"...would those be built into the drop downs in advanced search or maybe a tab in the advanced with quick searches? I kind of like the idea of built in "Quick" syntax but can't attest to the efficacy for others.
Marv, I agree in principle that people need to take responsibility and spend the energy to learn, but found when I was teaching the best thing I could do for a significant number of students was to teach them how to learn; where to go find the answers, and how to build up to the answers they needed, which usually involved Practice. Engaging newbies and novices with ways and a "Will" to learn can be somewhat double edged in this day and age of "have it now" and the next new i-Toy showing up every 10 minutes. It's applicable to all levels too, whether novice or master and the benefits are exponential, IMHO. To be successful in teaching this it requires the participants have a "Want to Learn" and not just handed to them on a silver platter, IMHO. To me this was some of the most rewarding experiences of my careers and one of the most valuable things to me about HMT.Quote:
The folks who need a detailed plan to drill and thread a hole have to recognize that they have a responsibility to learn the basic skills on their own rather than requiring every contributor to re-explain minutiae that are usually regarded as common knowledge. Learning those skills may require taking courses and/or patient reading and lots of practice but you can't expect it to be repeated with every new idea proffered for consideration.
You yourself have given me and others, a myriad of tidbits of wisdom, insights, practice, enabling the "Possibilities" as well as countless others. Some may not even know there is a tap drill chart or that a wizard such as your self wrote a program for it. We do because you told us all about it and why it's important! For things like this, I am most grateful to be a member here even though I already know about % thread depth. If I can point someone in the right direction...I'm a happy camper and it helps to exponentially expand the creativity we see here. I'm not convinced that we ever do it alone and sometimes we can stand on the shoulders of giants to do something magical...if those giants are willing to dangle a carrot, but only they have that choice. I have to admit my patience has diminished over the decades for particular idiocy, but recently saw the movie "The Intern" with De Niro and Anne Hathaway and it's renewed my interest in being of Value, not necessarily successful...although it would be a nice bonus if I can be of value. :p
I'm with C-Bag at some level about being a noob on one side and skilled on the other. We've all got our own skill sets and wherewithal but know absolutely I've got a ton to learn on all of it...And Practice. Then there are those things dancing around in my noggin for years looking for the right Spark to bring them to light, which is where my eclectic interests come from. I strive to be discerning, judicious and mindful of the results, especially now but there is always room for flushing things out that clog the arteries...always a challenge but necessary for new growth, IMHO and truly enjoy what we have here now. Choosing our passions and battles is the challenge.
Thoughts from the far side...~PJ
Ah, yes, "teach them how to learn". A noble goal, but so few teachers seem to understand its importance and even fewer know how to do it.
Of course, there is no universal formula for accomplishing this. The student needs to be first taught self-examination. How does his mind work and what learning pitfalls most plague the learning process for him? Sadly, most people are not very good at self-examination. Lots of folks claim to be hands-on learners but, in reality, they've never really tried the mental approach so can't assess their skill at it. To teach how to self-examine, the teacher must examine himself. Sort of like requiring aspiring psychoanalysts to undergo analysis themselves.
The teacher has many responsibilities. One of the most important, and most overlooked, is to start each teaching session with a discussion of why the student wants to learn the material to be presented. When I was working, the first slide in any presentation was devoted to this issue and it really worked to forestall a lot of irrelevant questions, the product of drifting attention.
I'm sure you've encountered the forum submission that jumps right into "here's how I built an xxx" without ever mentioning what an xxx is or why the reader would want one. Even something as simple as a carving mallet needs a bit of prelude - why does it have the form of a truncated cone? Of course, one must judge the presentation venue. An introduction suitable for a generalized forum may be extreme overkill for a professional woodcarvers' forum.
Enough of my babblings.
A search function for multiple external sites could take the form of a dedicated separate page, featuring a search box accompanied by a dropdown menu. The dropdown menu would have options like: "Search 13 woodworking forums", "Search 11 machining forums", etc. Each of those dropdown options would invoke a complex Google search query, with numerous inurl: and site: syntaxes built in, but the user wouldn't know it. He would just enter a search term, select an option from the dropdown menu, and get the results.
Here's a basic example of one I made a while back, that searches only motorcycle forums: https://cse.google.com/cse/publicurl...59:hxz9cfm1wrm . For example, try a search there for spring compressor, and then compare that with a standard Google search for spring compressor. Huge difference in quality of result set.
It's probably not possible to simultaneously appeal to both newbies and experienced people. This community's focus was premeditated to appeal not necessarily to experts only, but to people across DIY disciplines who had at least arrived at intermediate ability, and this ability was gauged by filtering on "homemade tools", which is a rational but not perfect means of establishing skill level across various DIY disciplines.
What we can and should do is focus more on appealing to beginners without disturbing more advanced users. This could be done with a dedicated subforum or an ebook with detailed beginner tool builds.
All good points Marv, especially the "Sort of like requiring aspiring psychoanalysts to undergo analysis themselves". If Only! (is that a new programing function?) :p The other issue with teaching is having to deal with someone else's curriculum and timeline. When I taught engineering drafting and CAD I wrote my own but had to work within someone else's framework/books for electronics (Ohms Law thru Digital) & computer troubleshooting. Some of those students had never turned on the old red switch before. I found it pretty "Awakening" what wasn't taught in our schools, by parents or life experiences and had to improvise daily, teaching how to learn so I could manage the timelines and get through the material. Using an opening salvo as you suggest works for teaching And meetings!
I think your "Presentation Venue" & Jon's point of the "premeditated focus" here speaks volumes for how and what is presented to whom...at least to me. Brief thoughts on having an e-book or sub-forum; The e-book kind of appeals to me but could be a squatwad of work for all the categories of DIY and dividing the population seems a bit extreme and might be perceived as cliquish, which I avoid, mostly. ~¿@ Perhaps a rating system similar to the Star system might work to differentiate the difficulty of a build and could be built into the submission template and used in conjunction with the categories?? I know I try to use the categories effectively but still a novice for the right words based on a page and a half of categories.
Jon, It's up to you if you want to implement the offsite searches. I tried your suggestion but my "Ghostery" blocked the custom search data entry line from even appearing. Once I paused it, it showed 3 cookies; Google Analytics, Google Adsense, & Google Ajax AP. I don't mind these too much but generally leave them enabled in Ghostery. I've used Ghostery for a number of years now and appalled by some of the practices going on out there. ForInsanity....DirecTv now requires one to disable it to log on to your personal account/information and then proceeds to drop no less than 35 cookies of all types onto your machine....and the big news sites are even worse. I may be a tightwad but its my wad. Please don't do that here.
~PJ
So, I'm sitting here in 'self-examination' phase, there are subjects I feel confidence in and less in others. It's the 'others' driving us come here to get details. So, I don't mind research, probably more effective when I direct that education posed by clues provided. Drilling and tapping is a good example, certainly that is a task only some can do in their sleep. Now and then a revelation or reminder comes along to AID task A or B; interesting. The list of search methods floating in right now are a good example. The text need to be pretty specific to operate, mere hints will not. If this was a site for programmers and PC builders that would not be the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by mklotz
So my suggestion to the average poster is to learn/ utilize terminology related to the project; prompting readers to ramp up comprehension. There is no way a post could carry every detail or assay confidence remotely and decide "oh I can leave this out".
In parallel though, a description of what the project is for, plainly is a different issue. Things I appeared here that I couldn't deduct "what on earth?" because it's apparently beyond my scope of interests; insufficient description to run with, or related skills. I recall one that I mislead myself as 'metronome'; when it was a 'micronome'. The huge LOL came at the instant of WTH form of googling the term; and realization outside interests are still benefit personally, and us collectively.
PJs - agreed on Ghostery. I use a "soft security" approach. I allow a bunch of cookies, but I also clear out my browser's stored files numerous times per day (usually any time I walk away from my computer).
OK, here's a sample Woodworking Forum search. It's a Google-based search, BUT it limits searches to 38 hand-picked woodworking forums:
Custom Woodworking Forum Search Engine
We can integrate this feature into the site more cleanly, with our custom look/feel but this prototype shows the important part: the search results. We can also do the same thing for different forum groupings: machining, boat building, hot rods, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon
Thanks Jon, Besides pausing ghostery to get to it, I found some interesting stuff on my latest find, a 1952 King Seeley-Craftsman 12" bandsaw. I did a search with that name and the model number 103.24280 and got some great hits on the forums. I was particularly happy to find that there was a "Low Speed Option" for cutting metal but no details...yet. I also noticed that there were about 3 adds at the top of before the actual forums started to show. Unfortunately I know it pays someones bills, just not mine. :p
I don't honestly want to clear my caches that often but for someone like yourself I get it. I'll leave my ghostery as it is and pause it when I feel ok with it, like with your custom searches with only three relatively mild intrusions~~>and continue with my weekly deep cleaning.
I would definitely use this type of custom searches and would think others would too. Still like the idea of drop downs for mods to the searches like we talked about above if it's within reason for your workload. Looking forward to hear what others think and what you come up with!
As Always, great work Jon! ~PJ
Great, thanks, interested to see what others say.
Not much we can do about the default ads with the Google search engines, but you can eliminate them for free with AdBlock.
Agreed on using dropdowns. If people like this search engine, I can get to work making essentially a multi-DIY forum search engine, with dropdown options like "Woodworking", "Machining", etc.
If I may include my two cents and thats probably all it’s worth. I just recently joined this forum and I totally get where tjroberts43 is coming from. We all have our strengths and weaknesses, some DIY ers need plans to be more precise and others dont, I for one only need a decent photo or a set of photos
to reproduce what Im looking at or come up with my own design. However Im not the type of person to sit and produce a set of plans, but I would if asked would gladly stretch a tape for a photo (s) to help someone else with their build. Times have changed and too many people think they should be compensated for their work instead of sharing with those that may not be as talented as the next. Years ago people would share freely with others but like I said times are changing but this forum could be different. Would it be too difficult for this forum to be different
Full circle after ~2 years. Warthog, Yes, times are different now and there are many that do post details and even drawings on this site...for free. I do think this forum is different, mainly because most here care about posting whether a build or questions or discussions leading from the original posting to something new or otherwise. You like many of us don't need plans but register the idea for how we want to proceed with our needs. Yes, others need hand holding/training or Practice and Patience and when questions are asked they usually get answered from my viewpoint.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warthog
The other boding question here is should it be free and who's willing to do that...for free. Most build posts start as free, imho and end up being ask for Plans to go with it...for free of course and sometimes they are given freely, sometimes people say I don't do that or document anything. Others like Doug (Rossbotics) gave plans for a long time "Free" and when the Plans for sale started he started adding his to the Pool. As a Premiere Tool Builder, Doug's contributions are invaluable to any and All skill levels and ALWAYS a good learning through his write ups and pictures. The costs of his plans are incredibly inexpensive and worth 4 times the price in my opinion for Quality of documentation, let a lone a newbie that could use any number of them as a beginner project, like his finger plate. How priceless is that? My point to this is: A Lot of people here do offer good details or help with "How Do I" questions out of that willingness to spend Their Time and Energy to help others...for Free. Others, admittedly post a picture or two and short description...and that is their choice, but even those sometimes spark interest, Questions and Conversation...even tool of the week sometimes.
As a parting thought on changing times; How many ads cross peoples path today, for free, and did they get anything from them? If so, Why? Most importantly, Did they actually ask for them? Someone spent a lot of time, energy and money making them but they are never Free...unless we choose to do it freely. That's one reason why I'm still here.
That's my two bits,
Cheers,
PJ
I totally agree with Shaqui here. Its a nice idea, but apart from the excellent artists and writers on these forums Im not privvy to email addresses of many others.
Of course if people from these forums possess these details they could always send them to you via a PM after theyve been given the ok to do so, of course