Thoughts on paid forum memberships - free for active members

I'm looking at instituting a paid membership program, similar to what we see on various forums and sites on the web, and through programs like Patreon.

We would make the memberships free-for-life for currently active members; probably anyone with 25 or more posts, and anyone who has ever won Homemade Tool of the Week. I don't know a good explanation for charging people money when they're the ones creating the content on this forum anyway.

The best reason to do this is to move away from an advertising model to support this site (you see ads on this site when you're logged out). Nobody really likes advertising, but people generally understand that it's a necessary evil. However, subscription-based models seem to be on the rise on the net, and, as this forum grows larger, they're a better option than relying on advertising.

Paid memberships would probably be around $5 per month (free-for-life for currently active members) and might include some of the following:

• An ebook bundle upon joining, with regular new ebooks. Stuff like: Best Homemade Vises, Best Harbor Freight Tool Modifications, Best Lathe Tools, etc.
  
  
• More access to free homemade tool plans. Perhaps even a private "Plans" subforum, that lists all homemade tools with free plans, plus regularly curated additions of more homemade tools that include free plans.
  
  
• Ability to enter more homemade tool contests with larger awards. Maybe month-long themed contests like: Lathe Tool contest, Rebar Tool contest, Wood Splitting Tool contest, Measuring Tool contest, etc.
  
  
• Additional forum privileges like: larger signature, membership badge graphic, highlighted username, special user custom title.
  
  
• Ability of members to tip other users by gifting them months of free membership, if they see a post that they like.

What are your ideas or feedback for a membership program? What would you like to see?

nice
I just hope it doesn't ruin your site's experience

here is a thought and just as thought to be rolled around on the floor before hucking it in the waste bin.
I know first hand how expensive running a forumn site can get once it reaches a certain level of traffic. plus the amount of storage space it requires on the servers. I am also a collector of memorabilia. I see things at some sites for sale promoting the public image of those sites if I like the item I'll buy it I may or may not actually use the item all that much but the items I do use get exposure to others they often ask me where did I find such and such.
HMT. has become a go to brand among the diy scene. I am also aware of the probability that there are many more who visit this site who never become members that there are current members. Those are the ones who will randomly search for ideas on how to complete a project they are working on or what ever. Sure they see the ads but if they buy from those ads HMT.net does not receive a share of the price of the goods sold not directly any way. HMT. net may get paid some in concessions as in lower band width costs due to having the advertising.
But what would happen if and minde you I am not one of these per guys who thinks someone should pay a per click charge like went around in the early days of the interweb. And I am really not a pay per view person either but like jon mentioned some form of subscription for the availability of the vast knowledge base contained within these forums has value or should have some monetary value to the occasional wed surfer who happens by. maybe not a monthly subscription just to stop and kick the tires but some limited access which would require a paid fee to view. These charges could be lessoned should the person become a contributor and eventually go away entirely.
Or the possibility of having a store with items for sale may generate income from the membership base as well. Caps T shirts key fobs pens jackets you name it the possibilities in having items branded with the HMT.net logo is almost endless. even to an eventuality of having proprietary items made for HMT is a possibility though remote.
I used to have a machine shop and an install company for advertising I gave away the usual things business cards pens key chains caps and such some of my customers asked me if I had things like coffee cups or winter hats T shirts jackets and other apparel like I provided for my employees I told them I could do that but as give-me's and they would have to be slightly different to distinguish between someone who worked for the company and someone who had bought the item. we couldn't have persons going around wearing a jacket with the company logo on it and have people assume they were representatives of the company.
So as I said just some thoughts to roll around on the floor before hucking in the waste bin.
but to be sure I surely would buy cups and caps and the likes.

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Originally Posted by diyfixman

nice
I just hope it doesn't ruin your site's experience

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I'm sure that would be the biggest fear of the possibility of driving away potential contributors

I am pretty much in line with Frank S.

Make available for purchase for a one time charge:
1. Cups, Shirts, Tools, and plans. Many of the youtube machinist are doing this now.
2. Keep all of the forums and the access to the Categories available for all at no charge.
3. PDF articles could be made for organization of the "Best" Lathe tips, Milling tips, Welding tips, etc. One time purchase.

As a subscriber I certainly enjoy not having adds popping up at me like on youtube and other sites.
At present I do not subscribe to any online forums or sites.


Just one guy's opinion.

Cheers, JR

Since I'd probably be on the automatic member list, I don't think it would be fair of me to say what I think of the idea. Instead, I'll raise some questions and thoughts that might help to illuminate the issues.

Would an individual need to sign up and pay for membership before being permitted to submit material?

Seems to me that the answer would have to be "yes" or there is no incentive to become a member. We might see fewer folks who are just here to advertise their youtube channels if the answer is "yes".

What about current members who don't meet the automatic free membership requirements? Would they and their posts be deleted if they failed to pay for membership?

How would non-member viewers be handled? Some fora allow non-members to read posts but not see the attached photos. Discouraging casual visitors can be both good and bad. Good if they have nothing relevant to offer, bad if they do and are deterred by the exclusive nature of the forum.

Thanks for the feedback; keep it coming.

Regarding sales of HMT-branded physical goods - I like this idea. I remember researching it a while back, via online stores that handle this; you just upload your logo and they take care of all sales. I was put off by the fact that many of them used cheaper clothes and various other low-cost goods for imprinting logos. I can research this more to ensure that we only sell high quality stuff.

Regarding signup specifics:

-Individuals would be able to sign up and post without a paid subscription. Interesting point about YT videos; maybe we can require a subscription to post videos. I'll think about that one.

-No posts would be deleted.

-Good point about viewing fullsize photos; I've seen that same concept on other forums.

-The main incentive to subscribe would be access to curated content. For example, we could manually review the 34,000+ homemade tools listings we have, and separate out all of the ones that include free plans, and organize them and present them to people regularly. Same thing for PDF ebooks of the best tools.

My whole profile reset to zero a few months ago - no posts, no awards, no thanks, no avatar. I never mentioned it because is seemed unimportant at the time.
If my ticket to admission is based on my history, then there should be a whole system of double checks to keep that history accurate.

If admission is based on the number of posts, many people would game the system, and instead of clicking the "Thanks" button, they would make a post saying "Thanks Marv - do you have any plans published?"

Many of the postings are fun to watch, but not very helpful as far as homemade tools. Many of the actual homemade tools are interesting but of no real use to me because they don't fit my interests or they are beyond my skills (anything that requires welding for example.) But it is interesting seeing how they are built.

As Marv mentioned a few days ago, he tosses out ideas that he has refined that he thinks others might benefit from.
There have been several posts that, while the tool per se is of little interest to me, the author's methodology, technique, or even general approach have given me ideas to solve problems that have been interrupting my sleep for a long time.

I am not sure I would be willing to pay to MAYBE pick up a pearl or two along the way, even though I am just a few pearls short of having several "Tools of the Week!"

I am not a hat or T-shirt sort of guy, but I like the idea of using them as a way to pay for the site. That seems to be a veery popular way to raise money.
I would be more inclined to buy something useful - say a 6" gauge with the HMT logo.

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Originally Posted by KarlH

My whole profile reset to zero a few months ago - no posts, no awards, no thanks, no avatar. I never mentioned it because is seemed unimportant at the time.

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That's important! I just double-checked our Homemade Tool of the Week winners file. It looks like you won under the KarlMetalworks username. Here's that profile with your award and such: View Profile: KarlMetalworks. My best guess is that you probably use KarlH and KarlMetalworks as different logins on various sites and they got mixed up at one time; I do that same thing. Does that sound reasonable? Let me know and I can merge the two users into one.

Agreed on people gaming the system, and how it could result in low-effort posts. I would only give free lifetime memberships to people who already have 25 posts at this point.

You would certainly loose me.
Even though I have built various tools, jigs, fixtures, and have come up with unique solutions to issues I never seem to have the time to write them down or submit them. Maybe some day.
I do enjoy seeing how some of your submissions have solved their own problems. I occasionally pick up a new technique to use.
Some times I feel like I should comment; especially when I see something that is truly hazardous. Again I never seem to have the time and when I remember I usually am too involved in family matters.
Such is the pace of todays world that we don't always get the time for what we would like to accomplish.
To have to spend $60.00 a year for what value I currently receive from your site is a cost too dear, as money always seems to be too tight and other day to day expenses are more demanding.
I think this is the most time I have ever spent in commenting.
I do enjoy the few minutes a day perusing your posts and would be sorry to see you go.

it is a hard one to know the answer to. Just about every automotive repair site, and a lot of other metal and woodwork forums have sections for homemade tools, but as you say, it costs money to keep it all up and running.
Charging is the quickest way to lose people who are "browsing" - similar to when I walk in a store, if the sales persons keeps hounding me to buy something, it just makes me defensive and unwelcome - it's as though all they want is my money. HMT is about people sharing ideas on tools they make/ modify. It has a feel of people all contributing, so anything which made that feel change to one of "give me some moeny to look at this" starts to rankle on some people.

I'll also add, never won tool of the week, not sure if I ever would. If the bar of entry is too high, it will be harder to get fresh blood, and the forum could easily become an echo chamber for the group who already have been here a while, know what it takes to win tool of the week, etc.
If I was looking to reduce costs, I wouldn't give physical awards for tool of the week - bragging rights are enough, or one off discounts at the store.

my 2 cents,
Des

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Originally Posted by diyfixman

nice
I just hope it doesn't ruin your site's experience

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every site i started to $ support has went by the wayside and got click ish as hell:(

Selling things that are not tools or relevant materials seems to me a not-core activity with a lot of hassle. I am living in Europe and delivering to Europe from the USA is always very expensive. I feel $60/y fee as too much money for value. For me $25/y would be acceptable. Selling plans, pdf's, tools and materials could be a good means to generate some income. Site entrance for any body seems to me a must. Otherwise newcomers will be scarce. So a three level system: free, limited, full, seems to me a good approach. And, Jon, thank you for the lot of work you are doing for this site!

I do appreciate this forum very much. I also understand most, NOT ALL, of the costs involved with running a forum like this. I have always wondered how someone has the incentive and the time to run such a busy forum as this. Jon has to be spending hours searching for and posting the things he finds, moderating the forum, keeping the infrastructure running, etc

No matter how much you love something, it is not easy to spend hours and hours and pouring money into it, if the reward does not make the effort worthwhile.

In regard to selling items to fund the operation, that simply adds several layers of complexity, more work, and added expenses; ordering, storing inventory, book keeping, shipping. Then there will be customer complaints, and the time spent dealing with all that stuff.

Of course there is the time it takes to solicit advertisers, I have never tried to do that, so I am not sure how difficult that is.

I am on a number of forums, all free, all advertise, a couple send out a yearly request for donations.

Personally; I do not mind the ads, my concern is a fee structure will have a negative effect on participation in the forum

There are no solutions here, simply my thoughts on the subject.

I am on this site almost every day looking at the posts and thanking people for posting there work. Although I don't contribute I do enjoy watching other members solving some problems that I'm having.
I agree that that charging to use the site is acceptable I also think that what your proposing is a bit too much for the likes of myself thats works from my garden shed on diy projects.
I hope that you take into account the members with lower posts when determining what you are going to do.
Thank you for reading this.

I am on your email list and have been for several years even though I hadn’t registered as an official member until today.
As a casual viewer, you would lose me if you moved to a paid membership model.

It seems to me that the majority of people that post, peruse, comment etc. do so as a result of not having the resources to purchase new tools themselves and their only alternative, to feed their manias, addictions, bolster their hobbies or what have you, is to build their own. Having a website that might cost you what a small tool would, seems to exclude a fair segment of visitors that might otherwise be willing to build things and post their efforts for everyone's benefit after they build something. I totally understand website maintenance and related costs and certainly don't blame you for looking for funding. I wish I had the perfect answer but do like the merchandising aspect although that will also come with additional costs and/or time demands. That being said I greatly appreciate your polling existing contributors and lurkers like myself for ideas. Many minds and approaches will definitely glean better answers to this dilemma and from what I have seen here, there are many great minds to shoulder the task. Unfortunately for me I was given a strong back and a weak mind! :)

For non-paying members, and non-grandfathered members who weren't given free lifetime membership, the initial plan is that there wouldn't be much of a difference from what you get now for free. You may not get a membership graphic, a larger signature, a custom user title, or ad-free browsing. But those are ultimately just perks.

The real value that paying members would get is access to more curated content; stuff that costs money to organize and publish, but delivers more value than $5/month. For example, I plan on launching the program with three new ebooks for paying and grandfathered members, similar to our 173 Best Homemade Tools ebook, our 36 Best Homemade Metal Benders ebook, and our 101 Best Automotive Tools ebook.

The Best Vises ebook is done, the Best Bandsaws and Bandsaws Tools ebook is almost done. Any recommendations for a third one? I'd like to publish ebooks like that regularly, maybe once a quarter. Paid membership can support that.

Another example - in looking at our Homemade Tools by Website listing, we now have 5,888 homemade tools listed just from our forum, and 34,830 total. I'd like to go through all of them, and isolate the tools that have associated free plans or drawings with them, and carefully organize them in one place so that people can see, for example, all Lathe tools that come with plans.

Another example - our previous "Ingredients" organization of homemade tools was helpful, but needed more work, so that people can choose an ingredient, for example "rebar", and then see all of the tools that can be built with rebar.

This kind of organization is tedious and time-consuming, but the value that it delivers to people is worthwhile.

Always when viewing a post, it is apparent that there are more guests browsing than members.

But I read the emailed threads nearly every day. Follow up on posts that are related to my (freaking huge) list of interests. Don't usually log in, and honestly would hate to see the site go to a subscription model. That said, I know that it needs support. I am one of the owners of the (formerly Yahoo and currently Groups.io) metal shapers group https://groups.io/g/Metal-Shapers-and-Planers/topics which is large enough that it needs a Groups.io premium subscription to maintain. That costs $110 a year. I pay out of pocket through Paypal, and solicit donations on an occasional basis from interested members. So I won't bore anyone who doesn't want to be bored I'll include some of the history of the group and how it got to this point, but I'm doing this as a hobby, not for profit. You need to figure out who you are (as a group, and a site) and deal accordingly. What works for me may not work for you, and may not always work for me. I will also note I'm going to be following this thread, as I may steal some of this group's ideas to assist mine! ;) Hats, and t-shirts. Maybe bumper stickers and those car window stick figures could be of machine tools...


So: history. I've been interested in metalworking, and dabbling in it, for at least 54 years. When I was 10, I had one of the GI Joe 12" figurines that was an active toy, not a collector's item. My brother and I, and out next-door neighbor, extensively landscaped the neighbor's back yard to play with our GI Joes. We had a small viking longship large enough for a couple of them to float in the trench that served as our river, and I made working swords, bows, arrows, and spears for our group out of coat-hanger wire cold worked with a cheap claw hammer and a rock for an anvil. That wasn't the start, just one of the steps along the way. ;) Took a machine shop class in my senior year of high school, and loved it, but wasn't smart enough to realize I should take more classes in the subject. Maybe get a job doing it. Got into photography and lapidary work, did a little gunsmithing with hand-tools, worked on cars and fighter jets, joined the Society for Creative Anachronism and learned some stuff about making armor to fight in, et cetera. Did 24 years in the US Air Force, as an aircraft mechanic, photographer, and satellite & wideband communications tech, then retired. Several times, in those years, I looked into learning to be a machinist, and looked for a lathe & shaper, the two tools I'd used most in my 1-semester machine shop class. Bought and read books and magazines, hand tools, and some small machines like a bench shear, combination lapidary unit. No real focus, and too many hobbies. Twice I found a lathe that I could lay hands on, but not actually buy. Had a serious brain fart when I retired, at age 43, and decided to become a teacher. Spend 10 years, all my GI bill, and $100K in student loans to get a bachelor's in Social Studies, Secondary Education, and about half-way to a master's in Special Education. Last three of those ten years I worked as a teacher while going to school myself, and gained enough weight to develop obstructive sleep apnea, and destroy my right hip joint. Ruined the teaching career, as nobody wants a teacher who can't follow a lesson plan, or write one. Took about 4 years to recover from the surgery, and realize that I wasn't going to be a teacher after all. And realized that if I didn't get some sort of lathe RFN I might not ever be able to get one, so I bought a Harbor Freight 93212 7x10 mini-lathe. Roughly 35 years after that machine shop class. Part of my recovery from the medical stuff was trying learn how to use the lathe again. I could do some really simple stuff, but not well enough to get good at it. Finding time to play was hard, $$ to support play time was nearly non-existent, but I had internet and found the Yahoo groups. That ate a lot of my time, but it was also good for my mental health. I joined over 100 Yahoo groups on various sugjects, including the Metal Shapers group that Scott Logan was running on Yahoo, and joined because I still wanted a shaper, too. Scott got too busy to run the group, and wanted to pass it on to someone, and I had nothing better to do, and there were no qualified candidates, so Scott gave it to me. The group survives, and even thrives, despite me. I have enough in donations hanging in Paypal to cover the next renewal, as long as I throw in a bit for my share, and I've gotten a great deal of fun and information from it. For the past four years and change, I've been taking a Precision Manual Machining class at the Francis Tuttle Technology Center in Oklahoma City, and I can do decent work on a lathe now, too! Among other things. Have had a decent job, as a mechanic, for the past 7 years, now, and that's gotten me two more lathes, and a shaper, and a monster drill press, among other things, as well. On the Yahoo and Groups.io sites, I sign as Bill in OKC.

How about something akin to Patreon where the donors would have some sort of premium access and/or recognition? It could either eliminate the need for a subscription for all, or at least reduce that subscription to a more affordable amount. $5 seems steep, especially for a lurker.


Neil

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Originally Posted by sossol

How about something akin to Patreon where the donors would have some sort of premium access and/or recognition

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Yes, this is essentially what it's going to look like. Non-subscribers would mostly get what they get now, although they might have to see some banner ads, or wouldn't get, for example, a custom user title in their postbit or a large signature under their posts.

Subscribers would get more stuff, and that "stuff" would mostly be more carefully curated and organized collections of tools and plans. Possibly an additional new subforum too; not sure yet. For example, a collection of links to free sets of plans for homemade tubing benders. Or stuff like these:

https://diqn32j8nouaz.cloudfront.net...ransparent.pnghttps://diqn32j8nouaz.cloudfront.net...ransparent.png

I'd also like to take a portion of subscriber revenue and use it as prizes for more higher-dollar long-term tool building contests, that subscribers could enter. Instructables does a good job of this; of course instead of crafts and such, our contests would be all different kinds of tool contests.

Broadly, even if people wanted to (I don't) - privatizing entire forums to require paid subscriptions doesn't really work as a content model, because then search engines and other traffic source websites can't see the forum pages, and won't list any of them.

Sad to say I only have 10 posts
What if after you could earn your way to free membership ?
With posts
I like the idea of selling stickers
Ray

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Originally Posted by shopandmath

Sad to say I only have 10 posts
What if after you could earn your way to free membership ?
With posts

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While this may lead to people making low-quality posts, I like the concept. We could do something similar by awarding free memberships to people who have earned the most Thanks votes for their posts.

I really appreciate you maintaining this site Jon, it must be a thankless and very time consuming task.
Paid membership would deter members from joining and have it's own set of overheads. Presumably the fee would be in $US, as I live in Australia, and our exchange rate with the US is the lowest in 10 years I would question the benefit of remaining to be a contributor.
Advertising doesn't really bother me, I notice it but completely ignore it.
Have you thought about selling a compilation of various categories of home made tools and ideas. I'm not sure how that sits with intellectual copyright laws in the US, or elsewhere for that matter.
One more thing, I guess you want members to remain active, and you could adopt a rewards scheme for regular contributors, or a disincentive arrangement for those, say who don't participate for 12 months or so.
For example, a member would lose all statuses and have to rejoin if a contribution is not made at least every year. That doesn't help with funding of course.
Maybe setup a tools for sale page, and charge vendors for advertising.
Whatever the solution I do not favour paid membership.
Tony