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Thread: Took the first step towards building my shop

  1. #201
    Supporting Member metric_taper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank S View Post
    Well I have the floor joists welded in place for the buss entryway landing will weld in some girts between them to support the eventual floor surface.
    Now probably it may seem a bit extreme to use 4x4 sq tubing for the joists but that was the materials on hand.
    Attachment 36116
    I'm surprised to see that 'dog leg' in the left side support beam. I assume it's because you had 3 longer pieces of square tubing, and why waste a few feet cutting them the same. Good thing you don't have inspectors around, as I believe they never let a beam have a welded joint. Not that I don't believe you have excess structural integrity, both in the strength of materials, and quality welds.
    I have I-beams I've spliced, but only when no one is looking. But I know I have full depth weld penetration, and a limited 2nd floor load.
    Nice progress.

  2. #202
    Supporting Member Frank S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metric_taper View Post
    I'm surprised to see that 'dog leg' in the left side support beam. I assume it's because you had 3 longer pieces of square tubing, and why waste a few feet cutting them the same. Good thing you don't have inspectors around, as I believe they never let a beam have a welded joint. Not that I don't believe you have excess structural integrity, both in the strength of materials, and quality welds.
    I have I-beams I've spliced, but only when no one is looking. But I know I have full depth weld penetration, and a limited 2nd floor load.
    Nice progress.
    The reason for the dog leg will become apparent once you see the stair way The dog is not in exactly the spot where I need it so may have to add to it but it was already made and close to what I wanted for the stairway there will also be a wall under the beam so a dog leg will have no effect on structural
    Never try to tell me it can't be done
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  3. #203
    Supporting Member Frank S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metric_taper View Post
    Good thing you don't have inspectors around, as I believe they never let a beam have a welded joint. Not that I don't believe you have excess structural integrity, both in the strength of materials, and quality welds.
    I have I-beams I've spliced, but only when no one is looking. But I know I have full depth weld penetration, and a limited 2nd floor load.
    Nice progress.
    We used to build lots of beams for pre engineered buildings, the longest we made was 3 Hero beams of 180feet in length it was a boxed beam with a 8 feet tall web 2 inch flange thickness 2 1/2 feet wide with 12" of crown supporting 90 ft long bar joists the building was about 372 feet by 186 feet outside dimensions clear floor with a 6 inch thick foam impregnated lightweight concrete floor on the 2nd floor with a wood surface flor on that,but yeah no dog legs though lots of spliced together steel. What the building was to be used for was an airconditioned indoor footfall practice field with a gymnasium in the 2nd floor yeah people in the middle east have strange ideas
    Never try to tell me it can't be done
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  4. #204
    Supporting Member metric_taper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank S View Post
    We used to build lots of beams for pre engineered buildings, the longest we made was 3 Hero beams of 180feet in length it was a boxed beam with a 8 feet tall web 2 inch flange thickness 2 1/2 feet wide with 12" of crown supporting 90 ft long bar joists the building was about 372 feet by 186 feet outside dimensions clear floor with a 6 inch thick foam impregnated lightweight concrete floor on the 2nd floor with a wood surface flor on that,but yeah no dog legs though lots of spliced together steel. What the building was to be used for was an airconditioned indoor footfall practice field with a gymnasium in the 2nd floor yeah people in the middle east have strange ideas
    I have to assume these beams were designed by a structural engineer, and included the strength of a proper weld in the calculation to safety and failure. I just know that a field hacked beam that is welded is not approved unless it is in the drawings for an inspector to validate as built to the PE approved drawing. And there will be many specifications as to ASME welding methods.
    I've dealt with inspectors on my home projects here in Iowa. They are underskilled people hired by the county, and as they 'took the inspector class' they are now experts in all building methods. I see more that the building trades and contractors have paid campaign donations (read as bribes) to the county board of directors to ensure local code ordinances that inhibits DIY from doing any part of construction. I so far have been able to get permits, but that requires putting up with their anal efforts to stop all non hired out work. You are lucky you live in a state that has not taken your right to build from you.

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  6. #205
    Supporting Member Frank S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metric_taper View Post
    I have to assume these beams were designed by a structural engineer, and included the strength of a proper weld in the calculation to safety and failure. I just know that a field hacked beam that is welded is not approved unless it is in the drawings for an inspector to validate as built to the PE approved drawing. And there will be many specifications as to ASME welding methods.
    I've dealt with inspectors on my home projects here in Iowa. They are underskilled people hired by the county, and as they 'took the inspector class' they are now experts in all building methods. I see more that the building trades and contractors have paid campaign donations (read as bribes) to the county board of directors to ensure local code ordinances that inhibits DIY from doing any part of construction. I so far have been able to get permits, but that requires putting up with their anal efforts to stop all non hired out work. You are lucky you live in a state that has not taken your right to build from you.
    Yep, I was the senior engineer in the company and had sometimes as many as 30 engineers in most fields on my staff. All card carrying members of KSE (Kuwait Society of Engineers) I even had my own licensed QA&QC for weld testing and welders certifications. Most of our major projects such as that one were overseen b y a consulting firm out of Holland. For a number of years my office our staff and the factory was utilized at night by many undergraduates to study and complete their required projects prior to receiving their diplomas. Even a few post grads would take advantage of our equipment and machines available for projects of their own. In 2018 I received an email from the KSE stating that my name was being dropped from roll for failure to complete a NOC ( no objection consent) since I had retired and was no longer in Kuwait I couldn't see any reason to keep up my dues renewal and hadn't paid since 2013.
    I know what you mean by local Muni's building inspectors. back 30 years ago when I owned a company called Nationwide Installers I had to deal with some real looser in my time. Brooklyn, Queens, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Seattle, Salt Lake City, Los Angeles, Dallas, Ft. Worth, Chicago just to name a few of the larger ones had some of the dare I say stupidest inspectors on their parole you could ever have the displeasure of dealing with. Some of them would remind you so some guy or gal who had been inspectors in small towns hired only because they had a heart beat. Plus there was the hand behind their back factor as well.
    Funny you should mention Iowa though. I met a man in Davenport who had his head screwed on correctly and in my opinion was all around knowledgeable in his duties
    Never try to tell me it can't be done
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  7. #206
    Supporting Member mwmkravchenko's Avatar
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    Nice to work somewhere that you don't have to worry about frozen ground over the winter moving things around for you.

  8. #207
    Supporting Member Frank S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwmkravchenko View Post
    Nice to work somewhere that you don't have to worry about frozen ground over the winter moving things around for you.
    That's true however all of the columns and posts are in the ground between 5 to 8 feet with truck rims welded to the bottoms.
    I've had to design structures around swamp muck saltwater infusion from Oceans as far as 30 miles inland, seasonal soil heaving due to high annual rain fall and long dry spells on gumbo clays, Shifting dunes, fluid rock, and bed rock,and annual frost heaving, but never actual permafrost.
    I placed the large diameter rims under the columns to serve as footings and wanted them deep enough to not be effected by any movement of the sandy loam soil above in most cases I was able to excavate through the layer of red clay into a harder bluish white layer below.
    Never try to tell me it can't be done
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  9. #208
    Supporting Member mwmkravchenko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank S View Post
    That's true however all of the columns and posts are in the ground between 5 to 8 feet with truck rims welded to the bottoms.
    I've had to design structures around swamp muck saltwater infusion from Oceans as far as 30 miles inland, seasonal soil heaving due to high annual rain fall and long dry spells on gumbo clays, Shifting dunes, fluid rock, and bed rock,and annual frost heaving, but never actual permafrost.
    I placed the large diameter rims under the columns to serve as footings and wanted them deep enough to not be effected by any movement of the sandy loam soil above in most cases I was able to excavate through the layer of red clay into a harder bluish white layer below.

    Well at 5 feet down you are safe for the area where I live near Ottawa Ontario. Where I grew up that would have to be a 8 foot depth. Fun and games everywhere I see!

  10. #209
    Supporting Member Frank S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwmkravchenko View Post
    Well at 5 feet down you are safe for the area where I live near Ottawa Ontario. Where I grew up that would have to be a 8 foot depth. Fun and games everywhere I see!
    I excavated rather than simply bore and fill with concrete or do a perimeter beam of concrete and slab floor before starting the project for several reasons with the main one being funds. Sure I probably could have sought financing which would have meant putting the place itself up as security. there is no mortgage so that would have meat literally that a huge portion of my monthly retirement income would have gone to pay for the shop. I was not willing to do that just so I could have a shop plus I would have had to down size my expectations by a huge factor and on top of that a lending institution would have demanded things I was not willing ot provide as well.
    I could have just done large footings and anchored the columns to the concrete footers by using a cubic yard or more at each column by tapping into our savings and paying for them as I went but why spend money when there is an alternative that works just as well. That money can go on earning some interest and still be there to either borrow against or use in case of an emergency.
    Never try to tell me it can't be done
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  12. #210
    Supporting Member mwmkravchenko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank S View Post
    I excavated rather than simply bore and fill with concrete or do a perimeter beam of concrete and slab floor before starting the project for several reasons with the main one being funds. Sure I probably could have sought financing which would have meant putting the place itself up as security. there is no mortgage so that would have meat literally that a huge portion of my monthly retirement income would have gone to pay for the shop. I was not willing to do that just so I could have a shop plus I would have had to down size my expectations by a huge factor and on top of that a lending institution would have demanded things I was not willing ot provide as well.
    I could have just done large footings and anchored the columns to the concrete footers by using a cubic yard or more at each column by tapping into our savings and paying for them as I went but why spend money when there is an alternative that works just as well. That money can go on earning some interest and still be there to either borrow against or use in case of an emergency.
    I'm agreeing with you completely.

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