Digital or dial indicator on height gauge

metric_taper started a thread http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/s...-holding-60204 over on "Tools in progress" to which I added some pix. DIYer asked if I was going to make a separate post. I wasn't planning it but then I had a job for it this afternoon and made a video whilst measuring.
So for completeness here are the original photos and the video.

Attachment 17536
This shows a simple rectangular piece to bolt to the lug on the back of the digital/dial gauge. This get clamped in place of the scriber piece of a vernier height gauge.

Attachment 17537 Attachment 17538
A dial gauge fitted ready for use.

Attachment 17539
Here is another way to hold an indicator, useful when there is no lug as with this linear encoder.

And now the video. Note the error, at one point I call out 10.2mm which should be 1.02mm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBja34bRAWk&t=2s

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Thanks tonyfoale! We've added your Dial Indicator Holding Lug to our Measuring and Marking category,
as well as to your builder page: tonyfoale's Homemade Tools. Your receipt:

<div id="blocks"> <div class="block b1 pngfix"> <div class="bimg"> <div> <a href="http://www.homemadetools.net/homemade-dial-indicator-holding-lug"> <img src="/uploads/168733/homemade-dial-indicator-holding-lug.jpeg"/> </a> </div> </div> <div class="head pngfix"></div> <div class="left pngfix"></div> <div class="right pngfix"></div> <div class="blockover b1 pngfix"> <div class="title"> <a href="http://www.homemadetools.net/homemade-dial-indicator-holding-lug">Dial Indicator Holding Lug</a> <span> by <a href="http://www.homemadetools.net/builder/tonyfoale">tonyfoale</a></span> </div> <div class="tags">tags: <a href='http://www.homemadetools.net/tag/dial-indicator'>dial indicator</a>, <a href='http://www.homemadetools.net/tag/holder'>holder</a> </div> </div> </div> </div>
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Thanks tonyfoale! We've added your Linear Encoder Holder to our Measuring and Marking category,
as well as to your builder page: tonyfoale's Homemade Tools. Your receipt:

<div id="blocks"> <div class="block b1 pngfix"> <div class="bimg"> <div> <a href="http://www.homemadetools.net/homemade-linear-encoder-holder"> <img src="/uploads/168737/homemade-linear-encoder-holder.jpeg"/> </a> </div> </div> <div class="head pngfix"></div> <div class="left pngfix"></div> <div class="right pngfix"></div> <div class="blockover b1 pngfix"> <div class="title"> <a href="http://www.homemadetools.net/homemade-linear-encoder-holder">Linear Encoder Holder</a> <span> by <a href="http://www.homemadetools.net/builder/tonyfoale">tonyfoale</a></span> </div> <div class="tags">tags: <a href='http://www.homemadetools.net/tag/measurement'>measurement</a>, <a href='http://www.homemadetools.net/tag/holder'>holder</a> </div> </div> </div> </div>
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Thank you, your video of making depth measurements, will be handy. I don't know how many times I've had to figure out relative measurements. Doing this, they can be drawn to an absolute coordinate system, with must faster capture time.
Most of the job of making a repair part is measuring the sample. This technique had not occurred to me.

I see a cable with 4 wires coming out of the indicator. Did you have any luck with an oscilloscope figuring out how to decode the data and clock?
Steve

Quote:

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Originally Posted by metric_taper

Thank you, your video of making depth measurements, will be handy. I don't know how many times I've had to figure out relative measurements. Doing this, they can be drawn to an absolute coordinate system, with must faster capture time.
Most of the job of making a repair part is measuring the sample. This technique had not occurred to me.

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Steve,
The zero setting is the thing that I like most about digital measuring instruments.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by metric_taper

I see a cable with 4 wires coming out of the indicator. Did you have any luck with an oscilloscope figuring out how to decode the data and clock?

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Yes. Firstly I tried with an analogue CRO but that just didn't show enough detail. So then I tried my Picoscope which is a box between what you are measuring and a PC. In effect a digital scope with the extra processing power of a PC. The Picoscope is a great tool and is much cheaper than a quality standalone scope. With that it was easy enough to interpret the coding. As you know I am waiting for a plug in cable to arrive so that I can easily plug into digital calipers then I can avoid having to solder on a breakout cable.
I'll make a post here when I have sorted out the decoding of my calipers. I'll post the decoding software code here as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tonyfoale

Steve,
The zero setting is the thing that I like most about digital measuring instruments.



Yes. Firstly I tried with an analogue CRO but that just didn't show enough detail. So then I tried my Picoscope which is a box between what you are measuring and a PC. In effect a digital scope with the extra processing power of a PC. The Picoscope is a great tool and is much cheaper than a quality standalone scope. With that it was easy enough to interpret the coding. As you know I am waiting for a plug in cable to arrive so that I can easily plug into digital calipers then I can avoid having to solder on a breakout cable.
I'll make a post here when I have sorted out the decoding of my calipers. I'll post the decoding software code here as well.

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Tony: I found this on eBay
Win-2 RS232 USB Interface Cables for Electronic Calipers &amp; Scales

I don't see the seller saying which version of win it runs on. It's a RS232 adapter. The end connector looks to be 4 pin, but who knows what it fits. I've tried a google search for WIN-2, with model number RS232, no luck.

Then this:
SPC/USB data cable for 100-700 iGaging absolute calipers, DRO | eBay


This looks like the best, but again unknown instrument protocol, and win version supported. It has a foot switch to trigger a measurement.
Interface Kit For Digital Measuring Caliper Electronic | eBay

Steve,

Your searches turned up more than mine. This is all I found and is what I bought. I don't seem to very good at composing good search phrases.

Data Cable for Chinese Digital Calipers and Linear Scales Custom DRO Project NEW | eBay

However, I'd be wary of buying any of those others without more detail on which data formats they work with. I think that the igaging will only be compatible with igaging stuff. In addition since I got the cable I have found that not only does the data format vary from instrument to instrument but so does the socket detail. The cable I got had been moulded a tad too large so it needed a bit of shaving to fit the calipers and digital indicator with "supposedly" a matching socket, but it was too narrow for two other calipers that I tried it on. They have 4 contacts with the same spacing but without a touch of super-glue and tiny pieces of plastic you couldn't guarantee that the plug and socket contacts would stay aligned.
i have a couple of applications for which I need to get measurements into a PC which is what had prompted my interest in this. To be realistic I don't need to pass data from all my calipers etc. to a PC and now that I have a nice linear encoder the incentive to play around has largely evaporated. Getting the encoder data into my software is very easy
This afternoon I got my cam profile measuring thingy up and running with the new encoder and I couldn't be happier with how well it works. Generally measured cam data needs considerable filtering which loses real data not just noise. This need is driven because cam analysis needs getting the first 3 derivatives of the displacement and each differentiation step enhances the noise. With my new setup, the results only need 1/4 of the number of filtering passes that I had to do with manually derived data.
Anyway when I get a moment I'll make a proper post about the system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tonyfoale

Steve,

Your searches turned up more than mine. This is all I found and is what I bought. I don't seem to very good at composing good search phrases.

Data Cable for Chinese Digital Calipers and Linear Scales Custom DRO Project NEW | eBay

However, I'd be wary of buying any of those others without more detail on which data formats they work with. I think that the igaging will only be compatible with igaging stuff. In addition since I got the cable I have found that not only does the data format vary from instrument to instrument but so does the socket detail. The cable I got had been moulded a tad too large so it needed a bit of shaving to fit the calipers and digital indicator with "supposedly" a matching socket, but it was too narrow for two other calipers that I tried it on. They have 4 contacts with the same spacing but without a touch of super-glue and tiny pieces of plastic you couldn't guarantee that the plug and socket contacts would stay aligned.
i have a couple of applications for which I need to get measurements into a PC which is what had prompted my interest in this. To be realistic I don't need to pass data from all my calipers etc. to a PC and now that I have a nice linear encoder the incentive to play around has largely evaporated. Getting the encoder data into my software is very easy
This afternoon I got my cam profile measuring thingy up and running with the new encoder and I couldn't be happier with how well it works. Generally measured cam data needs considerable filtering which loses real data not just noise. This need is driven because cam analysis needs getting the first 3 derivatives of the displacement and each differentiation step enhances the noise. With my new setup, the results only need 1/4 of the number of filtering passes that I had to do with manually derived data.
Anyway when I get a moment I'll make a proper post about the system.

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I got lucky with the first search, as the eBay suggestions came up with the other examples.
I'm in 100% agreement with compatibility. It's too bad this is not a standard (like RS232), then you could trust an off the shelf data reader. And the iGaging gave me the exact same opinion, once I saw another add for the reader with the caliper.

Here is a Don Bailey video which seems relevant to the original theme.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PpKESSjJAY

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tonyfoale

Here is a Don Bailey video which seems relevant to the original theme.

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I've watch several of Surburban tools videos, lots of surface plate information to a newbie (that's me), as well surface grinder techniques.

Thanks for posting this link, I had not seen it.

I glanced your original post Tony and was struck with how simple but perfect a solution. I was in a hurry at the time but it hung around in the back of my mind. I thought it was because no matter what I'm trying to mount on my old height gage I can't seem to find the setup for a lugged DI.

Then today I was doing some measuring and bang, there it was.

A year or two ago I decided to go on an eBay hunt for a height gage. I noticed nobody was hot for the old vernier's so I started watching close. Finally an old well cared for Starrett 14" came up with a veritable slew of attachments plus an old B&S .0005 DI w/buy it now of $110! I thought surely in all that I could mount ANYTHING, wrong. I still couldn't seem to work the lugged DI, until today. Now all the sudden that long piece close to the middle made sense finally. Makes me crazy I'd shifted that thing out of the way several times trying to solve that puzzle.

Thanks for lighting this dim bulb.Attachment 17624

C-Bag, is this the attachment your referencing?
Attachment 17625

Yup, that's the one, sorry, I don't have an editing prog.

So I was searching for surface gauge info, and found this photo of a height gauge attachment;
Attachment 17626

I could not find any reference to this other then the photo credit of Aliexpress.com, and I could not find any industrial tools there.
Attachment 17627Attachment 17628

Seems simple enough to copy. A side view would be handy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by C-Bag

Yup, that's the one, sorry, I don't have an editing prog.

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I use paint.net, free download. I snapshot internet photos by grabbing the whole browser window ALT-Prt Scr, sometimes right click 'copy image' works. Then just paste it into paint.net, put a select box around the item you want to keep, and click on the crop to selection button on the tool bar. Then save as a .jpg (darn program defaults to .bmp) give it a file name and directory location. Then next step it allows you to reduce the pixel resolution and file size. If under 2Mb, I leave it be. This site I recall does not allow any image larger then 2Mb.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by C-Bag

......... I noticed nobody was hot for the old vernier's so I started watching close. Finally an old well cared for Starrett 14" came up with a veritable slew of attachments plus an old B&S .0005 DI w/buy it now of $110!.....

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C-Bag, this'll make your day. That Starrett is of their "Master" grade height gages and calipers, 50 thou verniers and note ''hardened and stabilized'' engraved right on the beefiest scale bar of any height gage. By choice, a TAS grail, and my height and caliper standard.
Then look up retail on a new one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by metric_taper

So I was searching for surface gauge info, and found this photo of a height gauge attachment;
Attachment 17626

I could not find any reference to this other then the photo credit of Aliexpress.com, and I could not find any industrial tools there.
Attachment 17627Attachment 17628

Seems simple enough to copy. A side view would be handy.

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At first glance, maybe. But look close at your DI's. Grabbing it where the plunger is, is not that great an idea and the cap on the other side. What do you do with that? Personally the attachment Tony showed and obviously the guy who had my old height gage knew what was up an is truly simple, IF you have those kinds of clamps that go over the probe and the attachment, which luckily came with my gage. It can also be rotated 90deg so far it's been just what I needed. It just kills me it was under my nose all along. For me it's been hard to find how some of these attachments work as they aren't as self evident as I thought. So far I've not found a comprehensive demo of how they are all used.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Toolmaker51

C-Bag, this'll make your day. That Starrett is of their "Master" grade height gages and calipers, 50 thou verniers and note ''hardened and stabilized'' engraved right on the beefiest scale bar of any height gage. By choice, a TAS grail, and my height and caliper standard.
Then look up retail on a new one.

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Yeah, TM51 being a total noob I didn't see that fine print in the pics on eBay and truth be told, it would have just sounded like hype :) The thing that truly impressed me was the previous owner obviously used it daily as it had the paint completely worn off by handling, not scraping. I'll bet it was never in the case. It was also exempt from calibration. Unlike other things I've bought on eBay he REALLY packed it well too. It's another great old tool that reminds me of picking up a old daily played instrument. You can feel the mojo. Unfortunately it doesn't rub off and make me a better machinist, but like the old saying about blaming your tools, I know it's not the problem if there's a screwy reading.

Holy cow TM51, I just looked up the closest thing to that old height gage, aye carumba amigo! The best price new was $2k on msc, and the other shocker is that depth probe(which I've yet to use) was $250! Whoda thunk?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by C-Bag

At first glance, maybe. But look close at your DI's. Grabbing it where the plunger is, is not that great an idea and the cap on the other side. What do you do with that? Personally the attachment Tony showed and obviously the guy who had my old height gage knew what was up an is truly simple, IF you have those kinds of clamps that go over the probe and the attachment, which luckily came with my gage. It can also be rotated 90deg so far it's been just what I needed. It just kills me it was under my nose all along. For me it's been hard to find how some of these attachments work as they aren't as self evident as I thought. So far I've not found a comprehensive demo of how they are all used.

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Looking at the photos of these height gauge dial and test indicator adapters, I'm of the belief these are concept drawings, and you can't buy them, as there really is no value in the setup reusing the carbide scribe. And the short cantilever limits surface plate uses.

I don't have issue with clamping to the stem of a dial indicator, it's a finger tight thumb screw, not some bolt that is torqued and distorts the stem crushing it into an interference fit with the spindle of the indicator. I've not seen the need to tighten the thumb screw to cause bite marks in the stem. I do see the value in using the lug as intended, as every dial indicator I have, came with a lug back.

I have more issues with snugs that adapt the mag base or surface gauge to the indicator, as they all want to clamp round rod to round rod. The mag bases all came with a thumb screw tightened adapter, that attaches to the indicator lug (which fits DIN or AGD lugs), and then the snug clamps onto this.

Try to find adapters from metric DIN indicators to inch AGD bases. And from AGD to the import mag base which are metric. I've not found a snug that's intended to interface between them.

I can't get a Noga indicator holder mag base model that is DIN EU sold here in the USA. I purchased a Noga a month ago, and after seeing how rigid this is compared to any other mag base, I now want one for the DIN indicators. I'm limiting myself, as I don't want to pay full retail.

I can't find a M2.5 spindle pointer kit, like the common 22 piece dial indicator point set AGD with 4-40 threads. I can find them as individual points (limited selection), but not a set.

I work in both measurement systems, so when making a metric component, I measure in metric, same with inch. This reduces making a mistake with conversions. Hence I have indicators for the same ends.

You are right, those are just concept drawings as there is no visible attachment to the finger. I hate when they do this really detailed pic and it's magically attached.

I think I understand what you are saying. Even with all these different snugs I still can't always find the right one the correct diameter sometimes. I have my old Central 0-1" DI mag base kit I bought in '73 and use it most often for my other DI's. Mostly because everything is already there for a lug mount.

For me the idea of trying to mount by the stem is daunting because I've got a couple of Starretts, a Federal, a Mititoyou ,a B&S a couple of "made in Switzerlands" and they are all different. But the lugs aren't. And they are all in inches I don't have anything metric, yet.

After using the newly discovered DI mount it seems kinda long and I though of cutting it into two as one end is the bolt and nut and the other end is tapped but sure as I do, the very same afternoon I'll be sorry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by C-Bag

I though of cutting it into two as one end is the bolt and nut and the other end is tapped but sure as I do, the very same afternoon I'll be sorry.

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Guaranteed.
Why not just make a shorter one, easy enough, then there'll be no tears.

Yup, my conclusion exactly. Can never have too many adapters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by C-Bag

<snip>

For me the idea of trying to mount by the stem is daunting because I've got a couple of Starretts, a Federal, a Mititoyou ,a B&S a couple of "made in Switzerlands" and they are all different. But the lugs aren't. And they are all in inches I don't have anything metric, yet.

<snip>

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My recent work with measuring the taper of my lathe spindle drove me to purchasing the Noga as it has the stem clamp.
Noga which let me see the indicator during the sweep of the spindle taper:
Attachment 17633

This was the previous attempt, so I made this tool with a 3/8 hole for the AGD indicator, but a metric round end for my existing mag base.
Attachment 17636

This made reading the indicator during the sweep difficult. That damn snug in the way. But real problem was the cheap holder, which was too compliant, and as the indicator spring forces increased, the compliance produced measurement error. This indicator only has 2.5mm of travel. It's a bastard AGD-1 but metric reading (Federal brand green dial indicates metric). It does not have a lug on the back, but that mount would not work for this use.
Attachment 17635

I learned a few things, I found a youtube video of a guy in Australia that was regrinding his mag bases as his complaint was every one would 'rock' on a surface plate. I also had this problem, as mine were from the same manufacturing location (and low cost, ~$12). For simple runout measurements, it's all relative but make a absolute measurement where you need to know the error, and I found cheap to be avoided. So I splurged on the Noga (could buy 5-10 China imports for it's cost). But they only sell AGD Noga in USA.

I see where you're coming from now, that totally makes sense and the lug is not going to work at all. You're right also about the cheapo HFT mag base rocking. My old Central doesn't. Gofiggur. I've looked several times at a real Noga and my wallet just can't seem to be open to the idea. But precision isn't cheap.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by C-Bag

I see where you're coming from now, that totally makes sense and the lug is not going to work at all. You're right also about the cheapo HFT mag base rocking. My old Central doesn't. Gofiggur. I've looked several times at a real Noga and my wallet just can't seem to be open to the idea. But precision isn't cheap.

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I finally got so discussed with my China import holder, and seeing the many reviews on youtube with extreme positive Noga, eBay had best prices $98 for DG10533. The bottom zero is worth every penny. And using it the first time to measure the taper of the lathe spindle made me a believer. I'm trying to find the same size equivalent but European standard DG10503, but the price I'm seeing is $228, too much for me.

I noticed that the original video link was broken. So I have uploaded a new video which can be found at;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBja34bRAWk&t=2s