New worksop shed: propane generator or solar power?

[TheElderBrother]

I started a little 501(c)3 just in time for the pandemic to put our program on hold, but while we were in limbo I did a lot of work to get machinery and tools donated to our workshop, where we were teaching knifemaking to disabled vets.

We lose twenty-two vets a day to suicide. Actually, we were losing twenty-two before the Bat Stew Flu, and now the number has gone up, so every time you see that the big hand has crossed the twelve, think "One more combat veteran has taken his own life."

That's how inconceivably appalling the problem is. It should make you angry. We are losing more troops to lousy mental health care than we are to the enemy, wherever he might be found or whatever caves he might be hiding in.

So, I had this little wheelchair-accessible workshop because I lost a leg in 2016 (this is a nice take on that story: bit.ly/HeroForgedbyFire)

While I was killing time, I went down a YouTube rabbit hole and learned all about blacksmithing and knifemaking. That led me here.

I had to move the shop out of my house so the swarf stopped showing up in the laundry, and we were lucky enough to have an 8x8x12' aluminum storage container donated to us. It's like a conex box, but lighter.

(I'd show you a picture but the forum keeps telling me my upload failed, but not why.)

Whatever. The point is, I have about a $500 budget to buy either a solar setup or a propane-powered genny to power the thing, and I could use some good advice on which way to go, and how to spend that cash, which I can spent at either Harbor Fright or Home Depot. (My theory is that I would rather invest the budget I have in a portable power system that can stay with the container/shed when we move, instead of digging a trench across the yard to steal power from the house's 110v panel.)

I figure you guys are good at this kind of thing. Tell me what you think I need to know!

Many thanks,

George Oldroyd

[NortonDommi]

I'm with the generator as with Solar you need batteries and a decent sized inverter and to run tools regularly I think it would cost more than a generator plus a generator lets you get going fast and you have it for any emergencies. Solar would be a great option for passive heating.
Just a question as I do not live in America and know nothing about your building codes but do you have to underground power lines?

[WmRMeyers]

I'm with the generator as with Solar you need batteries and a decent sized inverter and to run tools regularly I think it would cost more than a generator plus a generator lets you get going fast and you have it for any emergencies. Solar would be a great option for passive heating.
Just a question as I do not live in America and know nothing about your building codes but do you have to underground power lines?

That would depend on just exactly where in the USA that you live. Back in the mid-1980's I wanted underground power at a place I was trying to build in NW Florida. My mobile home was about 150 feet/75meters from the road where the powerlines were. I was quoted $5000 for the power company to put in the trench to run the branch line underground. The soil in that area is a white limestone sand about 800 feet deep. A power pole for above-ground power was only a couple of hundred dollars then. And I managed to scavenge a power pole with the meter head. Where I live now, the soil is a sandy red clay that's only about 5-8 inches deep. Red sandstone under that. I really don't want to ask what it would cost for underground power here, but since I'm here in the middle of Tornado Alley, it ain't gonna be cheap. That's why you don't find many basement shelters here, though they'd be real handy on a regular basis.

Unless the roof of that shed is large enough to hold all the solar panels, I, too, would recommend the generator. It's possible to do blacksmithing without power tools, like Longfellow's Village Blacksmith, but for folks with disabilities, it's going to be anywhere from a bit to a lot harder. Air conditioning is a necessity in most parts of this country in the summer. Temperatures much over 78degree F, and I'm about useless, and I'm only mildly disabled. Knees are not too great, but not so bad I haven't been able to avoid surgery on them for the past 47 years. I have had both hips replaced, and the back isn't any too good, either, but I can get past that most days. Good lighting is very nice. I say this as my old eyes need more these day, and I'm in good shape comparatively speaking.

With the tooling I have, I couldn't run on less than about a 10KW generator unless I was the only one working there, when 3-4KW would probably do it. I do have multiple lathes and mills, shaper, and drill presses, air compressor, a bunch of bench grinders, plus some blacksmithing gear. I've also got about 600 square feet of space. I don't think George has that much space. Motor-driven tools need from about half again to double the rated power to start up under load, plus about double for an air conditioner, and the lighting at a minimum. Not counting heat, when it's needed, and I'd use LED lighting, as it's a lot less power hungry. For as small a space as I think he's talking about, I think a gas-fired forge could double for winter heat most places. My dad's old wood barn workshop did fine with an old potbelly stove burning scrap wood, and it doubled as a forge for the sort of light work he did. Horse shoes, and probably a knife or two. I didn't get the stove, but did get his anvil.

BTW, the photo problem is probably because of the photo size. If you're using MS Windows, the photo app will let you resize photos. Try something under 400KB or so.

Bill

[Frank S]

You didn't mention your load requirements for the shop, but since you mentioned just running a 120v line OK you said 110 but almost all normal home voltage in the US is 120/240 So I'll call it 120v. In general most 120v circuits in a home are limited to 20 amps there are some instances where a dedicated circuit may be 30 and even 40 amps, these are rare for most homes.
However a 40 amp 120v comes to 4800 watts (VxA+=W) with that in mind a 20 AMP circuit at max can draw 2400 watts
Now talking about generators the optimum generator size depends on the total continuous load the minimum size of a generator should be calculated to be using no more than 85% of total start up wattage output. Things like air compressors air conditioners refrigerators just about anything with a motor will have a significantly higher start up current requirement than the run current. There are ways to reduce these high start up currents by using capacitors and delay start relays tricking the motor into believing it is receiving double or even triple the amount of current that it is actually drawing from the power source, but that is a subject better left to A friend of mine in New Zeeland
After a long round about route to your question Solar versus propane generator/ versus a trench for a line to the shop. Or just dragging a heavy duty extension cord out when ever you need power in your shop area.
Long term if you never planned on moving then burying a line would be the way to go Dig a trench and bury a non metallic conduit and fish the conductors through it.
There are trenchless ways to bury the conduit as well either horizontal boring or vibrating-plow which feeds the conduit through by only making a thin deep cut, no soil is removed to have to be back filled. The advantage of pulling the conductors through a conduit is they are not exposed to the soil conditions and you can up grade later on should your power requirements increase.
Solar has its merits but the up front costs can be staggering
A portable generator fueled by propane will almost always be labeled duel fuel meaning you could run it on gasoline if you are out of propane. If you do a search you might even find them on sale after hurricane season as surplus over stock just the other day I saw a new 12,000 watt duel fuel generator on Ebay for 499.00 a unit of that size could power your whole house in a power outage and with the proper transfer switch gear if the power went out it could start up and run in and be powering your house in about 1 to 2 minutes.
For my money if I had any thoughts of ever moving the shop the generator would be the way to go but also have a 100 lb propane tank as the main fuel sourse with a bbq grill sized tank for back up

[hemmjo]

There is no way to get an adequate solar system to run machines for $500.

[TheElderBrother]

We could pull an overhead line from the house, but if I had to run AC power from the house panel, I would run it underground because it would not work out well to have a power cable stretching catty-corner across my yard a that height.

Thank you, though!

G.

[hemmjo]

As Frank mentioned, a lot dependson the distance between your shop and the existing panel, you need to start by figuring your max load in the shop. Then size the conductors and conduit to provide that power at an acceptable voltage drop. It should not exceed 3%. Closer to 2% is better, 4% MIGHT be acceptable IF your max load will seldom be reached.

You can size the conductors you need here. Voltage Drop Calculator

A 120VAC circuit needs 3 conductors. For example if you decide you need 15 amps or 120 power, 100 ft from your existing panel. You need 2 -#10 conductors, and a #10 ground wire. That is 300 feet of copper wire. Right now a 500ft roll of #10 THHN stranded copper is about $140. You will have over $100 in 3/4" PVC conduit and fittings. You need a breaker to tap your existing panel, and should have a shut off in your shop. that is another $100-$200. You are already at almost $500 and you have not installed any outlets, etc for the equipment.

If you need more current, you need bigger wire. The price goes up exponentially. if you want 20 amps, you need #8 wire at 100 ft. That bumps your wire cost up to $270 for 300' of wire.

Only you can decide the route that makes the most sense for al of your variables.


Good Luck

[Floradawg]

You're right. I don't think this would work for him, but I have often thought that for someone in an off the grid setup or possibly other applications one could power machines with treadmill motors. They could be run with deep cycle SLA or some other battery and a solar setup could continually recharge the battery at a relatively low current. I'm not sure the cost of a suitable solar setup for that but batteries get expensive quickly. Also unless it's a one person operation, which his isn't, for multiple machines a dedicated system for each machine would probably be best. One person could route the power for each machine as it is used. This is an idea that some may find useful or possibly interesting.

Okay with a treadmill motor being a high voltage DC motor this would not be a practical solution. There are some 36 volt, 48 volt, etc. DC motors available that are sometimes installed on go-karts and other vehicles which would be better. Speed control is simple also.

[Frank S]

Whether using a generator or running power from the house or another structure it is always a good idea to drive a copper clad steel grounding rod as deep in the ground as possible and tie it to the ground conductor strip in the disconnect box