showing build details

[tjroberts43]

What happened to actually showing how you built it? Can go to Google images to look at brag pictures all day long. Show me how you got there. Site has gone down hill since adding all the extra crap and plans for sale. No one just shares their ideas anymore gotta put up plans for sale. Which doesn't look like it took off so well

[Canobi]

What happened to actually showing how you built it? Can go to Google images to look at brag pictures all day long. Show me how you got there. Site has gone down hill since adding all the extra crap and plans for sale. No one just shares their ideas anymore gotta put up plans for sale. Which doesn't look like it took off so well

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you tj. I joined to share my builds and learn from the talented and skilled folks around here. I understand when someone's taken a great amount of effort and time to knock up a decent bit of kit from scratch, which would of course benefit from a set of plans to follow and probably be worth every penny too but now everyone is doing it (even stuff made from scraps lying around), its robbed the site of its core spirit.

I for one will still be documenting my builds to post and share regardless, but it sucks to think I'm not likely to learn anything new from here now

[Jon]

I moved these two posts from this thread: another power hacksaw into our Site Suggestions and Help forum.

I understand it can be frustrating to see a tool that you'd like to build, without accompanying details. I started this entire website based on that same exact frustration.

However, if you want more details on a build, please ask for them politely. We encourage people to post their builds, even if it's just one pic plus one sentence; the idea value alone is very useful. Needling our builders for more details isn't acceptable. However, you're welcome to needle me to alter site policy if you want. I've been running forums for 17 years and the resulting thick skin has made it very difficult for me to ever get insulted

tjroberts43 - sites go up and down hill all the time, and I appreciate your feedback. However, every metric we use to measure user happiness has increased lately, including tool builds, forum posts, registrations, and pageviews. Nevertheless, good criticism is still extremely valuable. What do you see here that you don't like, and how would you like to see it improve? If you were the admin tomorrow, what would you do first?

Canobi - thank you for your feedback too. The more negative the feedback is, the more important it is to us. Plans sales are increasing, and authors are starting to make real money. We even have free plans available. However, less than 1% of our members are selling plans, and that even includes the people whose plans we are now editing for upcoming inclusion in the marketplace. I'm confused by what you mean when you say "everyone is doing it". Let me know, and your comments might spark positive change.

FWIW, the irony is not lost on me. You both want people to give more details on their builds, and I want you to give more details on your feedback. On that point, we are in exact agreement.

[mklotz]

I'm particularly annoyed by this quote...

"No one just shares their ideas anymore..."

Many of my posts are ideas meant to simplify or improve the performance of some task. Any one with reasonable shop skills should be able to construct his own version without the need for any plans or poorly edited videos.

It might help if tjroberts43 gave us some examples of what level of instruction he's requesting with his statement...

"Show me how you got there."

If that's meant to include such fundamentals as:

drilling and tapping
silver soldering
rudimentary turning and milling practice

it's unlikely anyone will produce a post to satisfy his needs. No post is going to include a full course in wood or metal shop fundamentals.

This is not to say that more detailed instruction isn't required on more complex posts. The obvious solution, though, is for tj to ask for what he requires in the specific post.

Global criticisms are seldom well received.

[tjroberts43]

I look at a post most of the time and see something I like I click on it and all I get is a picture I built this. I'm not going to stay there and waste my time begging for plans or waiting for who knows how long to get a reply of this is the only pic I have. If you didn't take pictures of the build why post it? Because you want a pat on the back or want all the people begging? If I'm looking for something I have a need for it and don't want to waste hours trying to find what I'm looking for.

[C-Bag]

If I may interject here, as one from the other side of the fence so to speak. Picture this:

You need something you can't afford or is not offered anywhere.

You gather all your accumulated parts, learn some new skills and make the tool. As an after thought because you never really thought about sharing it, you take pix. You're not sure how to show all the details that would show what you did, or if anybody even gives a damn, or even what size pix to post.

You post them and watch as there are very few views, 1 or 2 "thanks", if your lucky a comment from the VERY FEW participants on HMT. Even though you see 375 viewers looking at the forum. And your post slides down the list under the Avalanche of posts, only to be seen for an instant again as DIYer thanks you and adds your post to your tool page.

Your tool now resides in its obscure digital cubbyhole accruing "requests for plans".......???? With no comments.......are these real? Who is the mass unseen tide? They join, give their terse "hi" and join the digital Avalanche never to be heard from again. If you DID make some plans would these ghosts actually buy them?

I joined because #1 the few who actually interact(percentage wise) are supportive and enthusiastic. And it never occurred to ask for plans, I wanted the ideas and they are here in spades. There is no drop in ideas since the plan ideas came along, in a certain way it feels like the sheer number of posts have gone up. I for one appreciate "thanks", comments and feedback. I'm glad to answer questions and show details, but that almost never happens. And when there's no response I just figure nobody was interested.

[tjroberts43]

Probably should have spelled everything out in minute detail. I meant by no one sharing anymore because most posts are now I title with picture and maybe a video and the statement I built this. That's great but but no dimensions or materials or anything. Kind of hard to go with a picture (usually crappy) and that's it. The show me how you got there means show me how you came up with a solution to build it. I know everyone has different materials available that is understood but show the process of building it. Some basic dimensions. The process you used to come up with the construction. The work around for for not having certain tools to use to come up your solution. Sorry for opening my mouth about this issue since I like to learn new ways of doing things or different ideas on things. I'll just fade back to the background. Since I'm not as smart as the rest of the popularity contest of who can make the most crap. Sorry to waste your time.

[Jon]

Even if you present your criticism imperfectly, it still has value, the same way that someone presenting a build imperfectly still has value.

Our university's law school often has lectures and talks about startups; they are constantly going on about how important it is to gather criticism from users. I will say that "need more details" is without a doubt our #1 criticism here. This is why we added the monthly Best Documented Build award, so that we incentivize documentation. Same deal with the Plans market. It's difficult to convince people to put in even more work, but if we offer them a reasonable payment, or reward, or even greater recognition among their peers, they will consider it. It's not a terrible idea to add a similar Best Documented award, granted on a weekly basis. The downside is that I don't want to discourage people from posting their tools, if all they have is a pic plus a sentence. Someone can take that fragment and run with it, leading to a more detailed build by another user, and then another.

We've even recently added a one-time-per-visitor corner popup survey to non-forum pages. It asks for a 1-10 rating of the site, and then it follows up with some "how to improve" questions. The ratings are very high; also known as Net Promoter Score, anytime your "promoters" (those who gave a 9 or 10 rating) are over 50%, it's a great sign. If you sort out the junk comments, you can see the "more details" theme. These ratings and comments are anonymous; we don't know who made them, and we don't care. We've only had this up for a short while, but here's the data we have so far:







C-Bag makes a good point about engagement. We know that around 90% of visitors to forums simply don't post; it's an exaggerated application of the Pareto principle. One advantage we get from encouraging votes, likes, or "Want a plan" buttons (that one needs work, I know) is something called a micro-conversion or micro-engagement. The hurdle of registering, introducing, commenting, then posting a tool is significant. So we have to offer opportunities for people to dip their toes in first. Users who make even the slightest engagement on a site are far more likely to then eventually register and make great posts.

[Warthog]

If I may include my two cents and thats probably all it’s worth. I just recently joined this forum and I totally get where tjroberts43 is coming from. We all have our strengths and weaknesses, some DIY ers need plans to be more precise and others dont, I for one only need a decent photo or a set of photos
to reproduce what Im looking at or come up with my own design. However Im not the type of person to sit and produce a set of plans, but I would if asked would gladly stretch a tape for a photo (s) to help someone else with their build. Times have changed and too many people think they should be compensated for their work instead of sharing with those that may not be as talented as the next. Years ago people would share freely with others but like I said times are changing but this forum could be different. Would it be too difficult for this forum to be different

[PJs]

If I may include my two cents and thats probably all it’s worth. I just recently joined this forum and I totally get where tjroberts43 is coming from. We all have our strengths and weaknesses, some DIY ers need plans to be more precise and others dont, I for one only need a decent photo or a set of photos
to reproduce what Im looking at or come up with my own design. However Im not the type of person to sit and produce a set of plans, but I would if asked would gladly stretch a tape for a photo (s) to help someone else with their build. Times have changed and too many people think they should be compensated for their work instead of sharing with those that may not be as talented as the next. Years ago people would share freely with others but like I said times are changing but this forum could be different. Would it be too difficult for this forum to be different

Full circle after ~2 years. Warthog, Yes, times are different now and there are many that do post details and even drawings on this site...for free. I do think this forum is different, mainly because most here care about posting whether a build or questions or discussions leading from the original posting to something new or otherwise. You like many of us don't need plans but register the idea for how we want to proceed with our needs. Yes, others need hand holding/training or Practice and Patience and when questions are asked they usually get answered from my viewpoint.

The other boding question here is should it be free and who's willing to do that...for free. Most build posts start as free, imho and end up being ask for Plans to go with it...for free of course and sometimes they are given freely, sometimes people say I don't do that or document anything. Others like Doug (Rossbotics) gave plans for a long time "Free" and when the Plans for sale started he started adding his to the Pool. As a Premiere Tool Builder, Doug's contributions are invaluable to any and All skill levels and ALWAYS a good learning through his write ups and pictures. The costs of his plans are incredibly inexpensive and worth 4 times the price in my opinion for Quality of documentation, let a lone a newbie that could use any number of them as a beginner project, like his finger plate. How priceless is that? My point to this is: A Lot of people here do offer good details or help with "How Do I" questions out of that willingness to spend Their Time and Energy to help others...for Free. Others, admittedly post a picture or two and short description...and that is their choice, but even those sometimes spark interest, Questions and Conversation...even tool of the week sometimes.

As a parting thought on changing times; How many ads cross peoples path today, for free, and did they get anything from them? If so, Why? Most importantly, Did they actually ask for them? Someone spent a lot of time, energy and money making them but they are never Free...unless we choose to do it freely. That's one reason why I'm still here.

That's my two bits,

Cheers,
PJ