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Unused and used syringe needle comparison.
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Previously:
https://www.homemadetools.net/forum/...429#post181726
https://www.homemadetools.net/forum/...783#post194119
https://www.homemadetools.net/forum/...412#post192765
https://www.homemadetools.net/forum/...364#post188884
I am sure that alleged entry bending of the needle tip is going catch some tissue on the way back out.
That bent tip on the used syringe looks like whoever administered the injection must have struck a bone
Hello,
Thank you for the post concerning the microscopic view of an injection needle.
I am a retired clinical pharmacist, retiring in 2014 after having practiced hospital pharmacy for 50 years. During my career, i had a similar experience with a family of injectable products which were repeatedly traumatizing patients. All of the trauma occurred post injection and all during the withdrawal phase of the injection process. (i.e. During the insertion phase of the injection a normal amount of discomfort was experienced, but upon withdrawal of the needle a large amount of pain was experienced.) Upon inspection of the needles under the metallurgical microscope, similar "barbs" to those in the post were found on the needles causing the pain. Upon further inspection of new, unused needles more barbs were also found. Essentially the nurse giving the injection was doing so while unknowingly using a barbed fishhook rather than a hypodermic needle. No wonder it hurt!!! This points away from physical alteration of the needle geometry during injection as suggested. What is much more likely is that this represents a manufacturing defect, and could be related to the metal used in the needle, the abrasive used to sharpen he needle, and the sharpening parameters and conditions among other factors. The primary reasons that needles should not be reused are those of infection control. In other words, once a needle goes into a muscle, it becomes contaminated, is no longe sterile, and therefore unsuitable for reuse in ANY patient including the one that its just came out of.
Hope that this helps to clarify some things.
W. John Zemke, Pharm. D.
A manufacturing defect does make a lot of sense. I was given a shot in the arm by an Army medic, and he did strike the bone. My arm bled like the dickens after he pulled out the needle. I was already in a lot of pain so didn't associate any new pain with the injection, but the tip of the needle was visibly bent no microscope required the reasoning behind my analysis.Quote:
Originally Posted by wjzemke1968
That's what I was thinking also
The nurse, upon withdrawing the syringe would of known if it was barbed. It would hang up just as it would when withdrawing it from a patient.
Actually, probably not. These barbs are quite small, usually not noticeable with the unaided eye, and not big enough to cause any problems on the way in. They are plenty big enough, however, to snag already traumatized tissue on the way out, and likewise stimulate plenty of pain-receptor nerve endings in doing so. The only way that we could adequately convince the company representative of the existence of the problem was to present him with a photomicrograph of what we saw under the microscope!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by dbat74
ok got it. thanks
Re: the army medic hitting the bone.
He probably hit the axial nerve, which goes around the upper arm just below the correct injection site.
And, he went too deep.
Intramuscular injections are to be intra(inside) the muscle, NOT against the bone.
You will often see pics of the COVID vax being given with the technician pinching the muscle - that's to increase the depth of muscle to be stabbed on less-than-muscular folks (like aged or children). It is wrong to do it with people who have significant fat - it just increases tha chance of injecting into the fat, which is the wrong type of tissue for an intramuscular vaccine to work in.
Also, if the injection is given too high up the arm, one can hit the bursa in the shoulder, which happened to my brother.
He got SIRVA (Shoulder Injury Related to Vaccine Administration). Google SIRVA and you'll find a zillion personal injury lawyers waiting for your call!
His shoulder was in terrible pain for months afterwards.
BTW: If you get ANY Adverse Event (pain, hives, rash, etc.) PLEASE report it on the VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System) site that the FDA runs.
It is by using those reports that researchers can know what to research, and how to prevent them in the future - like better training on how to do intramuscular injections!
And, you do NOT need tobe a medical professional to report to VAERS. More data is better in this case.
I don't know what he hit but the needle was visibly bent but the injection did its job bleeding aside because my dislocated shoulder stopped hurting shortly afterwards.Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesWaugh
Wouldn't know anything about the covid stuff, I don't go to cities so don't much care what goes on in them
Charles,
Curiously, my original family doctor, the one who delivered me, always gave his injections in the triceps muscle rather than the deltoid which is the usual and customary practice nowadays. He did so for precisely the reasons you cite, safety and less pain, and to this day I request that my injections be given in the triceps. If you think about it, the triceps is within easy reach, is not a small muscle, can be pinched as you described, and is constantly being moved which increases blood flow to the area to speed the healing process. Also, if the length of the needle is limited to about 5/8", then the hub of the needle can be used as a "stop" to keep from going too deep yet still achieve IM penetration. If the "needle stop" technique is used as described, this in turn makes possible a very rapid injection process; and if the needle is inserted into the muscle rapidly enough so that the cutting edge of it does not stimulate the pain receptor nerve endings long enough for them to "fire," then the whole process becomes almost painless. Granted, there are some medications which specify "deep IM into a large muscle mass," and for those meds the triceps is probably an inappropriate injection site. But for small volume, dilute, aqueous parenterals the triceps has distinct advantages. I also sincerely believe that the primary reasons that the deltoid muscle is used so commonly are those of convenience, effenciency, and professional ossification.