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Thread: Rolling Mill

  1. #31
    Toolmaker51's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Thanks for posting about this machine tipping. There is a trend in forums (and of course more broadly in life) to under-report the occurrence of catastrophic events, despite the fact that the knowledge gleaned from failures is often more valuable than that gained from successes. This behavior falls under an umbrella of various related cognitive biases: positive outcome bias, file drawer effect, publication bias, reporting bias.
    There might be two variety of failure. One is certainly un-preparedness. All the other descriptions I can think of still boil down to that same lack of resource.
    Jon's link to biases are items for me to pursue. Marv points out homilies, for want of a better term, others use to salve or decelerate failures, like political spin.
    Well, awareness cures many situations. Flight deck of an aircraft carrier is a prime example; adage was 'keep your head on swivel'.
    Sincerely,
    Toolmaker51
    ...we'll learn more by wandering than searching...

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by mklotz View Post
    Right on, Jon. Ever since childhood I've thought badly of such bromides as...

    Think positive (stupid sentiment and bad English)
    Look on the bright side
    Everything will work out
    Don't dwell on your mistakes
    Trust in (insert deity of choice)

    because it seemed that, the more I analyzed and corrected my mistakes, the better things went.

    At least the British wartime injunction "Keep calm and carry on" didn't contain any assurances that "carrying on" would work.

    I think all of us here have a responsibility to not only report our own screw-ups, but also to point out dangerous setups and practices when others reveal them. Any annoyance the latter may cause is far outweighed by the satisfaction of perhaps saving someone from harm.
    Or remark, Oh well better luck next time.
    Never try to tell me it can't be done
    When I have to paint I use http://kbs.justoldtrucks.com/

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    Expanding on what Jon, Marv and TM51 said
    During an interview for one of the very fare wage slave jobs I ever applied for between the time I had apprenticed at the Blacksmith shop and my decision to join the Army. The interviewer had already reviewed my application and had even phoned the blacksmith shop long distance.
    He told me well your previous employer has nothing but the highest praise for your performance for the years you worked there, however what I want you to tell me is if you ever did something that turned out to be a bad decision and elaborate on what you think you would do differently the next time faced with a similar situation.
    we talked for a couple of hours about personal experiences that didn't exactly turn out as planed and some other things that neither of us would ever do again no matter what.
    Long story shortened I got the job at over twice their normal starting salary while my brother-law 10 years my senior was started out at below their start rate and placed on a 60 day trial employment. He lasted all of 2 weeks while I got 2 raises and an appreciation bonus when I left for the Army later that year.
    Never try to tell me it can't be done
    When I have to paint I use http://kbs.justoldtrucks.com/

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  5. #34
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    Boy that was too close for comfort. Am wondering, on the picture of the mill taking its nap, there is a red board on the floor in front of the wheels on the lift. Was the mill setting on that board when it was upright? Makes me think that maybe the mill rolled backwards and the rear wheels dropped over the edge of the board and over she went. On the earlier picture of the lifting apparatus, it looks like the rear wheel is a caster wheel. If it was pivoted toward the front of the machine, the point of rear support would be very close to the C of G. So, caution is indicated on building these things. I have been working on elevating some of my machine tools and am going back to the design board with some of my ideas with an eye on stability. Thanks for sharing. Very glad you were not hurt. Never argue with trucks, trains, gravity or mass. You will lose every time.

    Very Best Regards Jim_Z
    Last edited by Jim_Z; 06-13-2017 at 08:08 PM.

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    Hi Jim, the red mat is a foam pad I was kneeling on, it was not under the mill.

    Your observation is 100% correct.

    IF I had been working on the side of the mill and not working from the front I would have seen (possible) the position of the wheel which is a swiveling castor.

    Or if I had another person there just for a second set of eyes this might have been avoided.

    30 years ago I did a lot of heavy rigging and lifting, I have set 60" cast iron gate valves and 12' sluice gates and set the pumps and motors/engines but that was 30 years ago and I have not been around heavy things since.

    I have said that the 12" channel should have been longer, I might add a 6" piece of angle iron to lengthen the channel and so that the castor could do a 360° revolution.

    The 12" channel is "safe" if I just lift 1/4", with that I have full movement of the mill.

    Here is another picture of my bench, luckily the bench took the full force of the fall and saved the mill, no serious damage was done to the mill besides the
    broken motor cover and that piece is cast iron so possible I can braze or silver solder it back together.
    Rolling Mill-dscn7750-1024x768.jpg
    I can easily repair the bench.

    Ralph

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    OOOOOWWWCH Sorry to see that happen to you. I'll take the blame as you did that for me. Fortunately, the angle of the design is better seen and while I contemplate mine I think I may spread the wheels out further and work out a chain drive to do both sides at once. I don't have a mill but I do have heavy woodwork stuff. Thanks for the "update". Glad your OK

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    I offer an easy concept that users might find works for their equipment. The failure in this mill highsiding is less on the machine or idea, more on physics. Adopt broadest trackwidth and longest wheel base you can. Casters have certain faults that cannot overcome high center of gravity. One; kingpin of a steering [crazy wheel or swivel] unit. Second; wheel material. Third; wheel axle and bearing between. Fourth; housing or plates of a caster loaded too close to capacity.
    Another relates to a swiveling caster. When it swings you lose trackwidth, that effectively raises center of gravity.
    You must divide full weight by 4 in determining 'grade' of desired MINIMUM caster. All these are part of caster selection, accessible in reference charts of manufacturer.

    An alternative is not exactly as mobile, but has numerable benefits. Depending on your machine base, design axles slightly wider than base. That will be your bearing, with some reduction in diameter at each end. Retain a heavywalled tube by semi-permanent means; [cap screw and washer, plug-weld, cross pin] allowing a loose sideplay to reduce friction or interference.
    Devise a swinging mount, so wheels only contact floor when preparing to move. That can be any suitable jacking mechanism that cannot settle unintended. An mechanical example are those for ShopSmith multi-use woodworking equipment, however they are only suited to a couple hundred pounds. They indicate the action I describe.
    I'm not setup for CAD, but if any need a decent sketch, that I can do and post here. This won't be a 'Tool Plan' as too many variables exist.

    I'm pleased to see so much traffic on this idea, unfortunate as it may be, and the resulting helpful input.
    Last edited by Toolmaker51; 06-14-2017 at 03:26 PM.
    Sincerely,
    Toolmaker51
    ...we'll learn more by wandering than searching...

  10. #38

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    Hello Ralph,
    I am sorry to see what a mess you got into, and also pleased that you were not hurt. So this has been a lesson that has not cost as much as it could have done
    but looking at your photos you were trying to balance the whole machine on two unstable points, scissor jacks do not have lateral stability.
    Regards
    fixit45

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    "Adopt broadest trackwidth and longest wheel base you can."

    IMHO this is the root cause, or the lack thereof. Mills in general are top heavy and one needs to pay very close attention while moving them. When I need to move my Fray vertical I use my pallet jack. Keeps everything low as possible. If need be I'll turn the head upside down and lower the knee to its lowest position.

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  13. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphxyz View Post
    Hi Jim, the red mat is a foam pad I was kneeling on, it was not under the mill.

    Your observation is 100% correct.

    IF I had been working on the side of the mill and not working from the front I would have seen (possible) the position of the wheel which is a swiveling castor.

    Or if I had another person there just for a second set of eyes this might have been avoided.

    30 years ago I did a lot of heavy rigging and lifting, I have set 60" cast iron gate valves and 12' sluice gates and set the pumps and motors/engines but that was 30 years ago and I have not been around heavy things since.

    I have said that the 12" channel should have been longer, I might add a 6" piece of angle iron to lengthen the channel and so that the castor could do a 360° revolution.

    The 12" channel is "safe" if I just lift 1/4", with that I have full movement of the mill.

    Here is another picture of my bench, luckily the bench took the full force of the fall and saved the mill, no serious damage was done to the mill besides the
    broken motor cover and that piece is cast iron so possible I can braze or silver solder it back together.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	DSCN7750-1024x768.jpg 
Views:	45 
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ID:	18479
    I can easily repair the bench.

    Ralph
    .....be sure to tram it in.as it dosent take much to alter it and you may never see it's off with just milling with small endmills. also do not try this again. I know you feel stupid. remember you can fix that mill but you cant fix stupid.learn from this.many people dont. Ive moved my mills around the shop, never more than about an inch off the floor. and yes a extra person should always be there.you dont need your kids coming to get you for dinner and finding you dead.that will never leave their minds. one of my brothers machinist friends wife went out to get him just to find him with half his head sheered off from something he was moving....not good. Even if your not hurt but trapped underneath, how long till somebody finds you? that could be what kills you. or when you get better your wife may just finish the job you never compleated just something to think on. oh I forgot Im always alone in my shop.....when Im in there. good luck and dont pick stuff up for a pic,
    it aint worth it.

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