as some of you know I have been reaching out to the community for help on this project maybe I am being too harsh but it kills me when someone says why go through the trouble just go out and buy one why are we here to get stuff from Walmart? or use our Yankee ingenuity the stuff that made this country the fore fathers did not have Walmart so they made stuff thank god of this country would be a mess from the start do we realize that most of our industry is made in china if we don't wake up we will be working for the Chinese you need something how about making your own and forget Walmart we are so lazy as a society aaaaaaahhh!!!!
Jamman, if I may. I don't know squat about guns but I've been here a little while now and I saw your last post and it's headed more in the right direction. You need to take the long view here. There are some AMAZING people here but the vast amount of traffic is just lurkers who never de cloak.
So rule 1 is patience. There is a core of folks who post regular and you can see directly their "stats" by looking at the field under their names. This isn't just silly bling. Even guys with no bling but who give good sage advice deserve to be paid attention to. You blowing off somebody like rossbotics is NOT a good move. This guy has got the chops and when he offered you help to take a look at what it is you are messing with its not a good idea to go on a rant about $$ and "doing it the way it used to be done". And especially going on a rant about WallyWorld. Doug just made that piece FROM SCRATCH. And to aerospace specs. Blowing him off just puts your stats in the negative with the crowd of gods that frequent here to worship what it means to really make something.
Like I said I don't know squat about guns but you made my spidy sense spike when I saw your first piece that looks to be two pieces of pipe coupling welded together. It looks like your receiver? Is this even safe? And it doesn't look anything like the plans. The plans look like a solid block for the receiver. What have you got for machining? Lathe, mill? This isn't cheating, crude is not better when you are also taking safety into account. And you're not building a popgun, you are making something that can kill you or somebody else. And the old guns regularly killed their owners. Modern ammo is nothing to take lightly.
It's taken me years to save up and then patiently wait for deals on my lathe and mill. Then even more to learn how to use them and maintain them. More of that long view. This is also something people don't have anymore. Wag more, bark less. get to know the folk here and sop up some of the deep knowledge that abounds here and let them know what you have in the shop and can do. These folks are supportive and helpful to those they can help. You don't want to end up ignored.
A lot of times I hesitate to add very much input to a discussion of this nature especially when to me at least I feel much advice given is either misinterpreted or the grist of the advice is not understood due to the limitations of a conversation being carried on via keyboard. Then there is the experience gap which often times can be worst than a generation gap between a kindly old grandfather and his grandson Or in my case a crotchety old guy who has been around since before heck was even a pup.I don't claim to be a gunsmith and never played one on TV. I started my apprenticeship in metals in a blacksmith shop in 1964 or 1965. I won't bore everyone with all the things I've done over the past 50 years. I would like however to offer you a reality check and trust you will not take it the wrong way.
First off I can see that you show a lot of passion for the project you are wanting to build, that being said I fear that your over exuberance may be just a little above your current skill set to accomplish the task you have set your sights on. I realize from many of the things I've designed and built over the years that the only way to obtain said skill set is to jump in and do things, but when it comes to working on fire arms one simply must have a lot of respect for them Before attempting to make one a guy should first have a lots of background in metallurgy, plus they need to be an accomplished machinist, one who is capable of and has made many precision machine tools.
That is as far as I am going to take you down the road of reality. You have already had a couple of very accomplished machinist tell you more or less what I have just told you.
I want you to read an article on firearms history and technology about button rifling
Firearms History, Technology & Development: Rifling: Manufacturing: Button Rifling
Remember most of the time when someone comments with criticisms it is not usually done with the intent to belittle.
Tha being said I am not trying to dissuade you from building the scout. I think however you after proper research is done you will find that even very accomplished gunsmiths buy their barrels because it is far less expensive than trying to make their own unless they have a shop full of machines and tooling.
Last edited by Frank S; 04-10-2016 at 04:31 AM.
Jamman,what is this ??? bottom line keep quite and go buy a store made button Rossbotics no disrespect you may be a mighty god here but I am here to learn and create to obtain the knowledge needed to obtain my gold I thank the guys who took the time to respond and pass on their knowledge
This forum has been a great resource of great people, ideas, education, camaraderie and fun, for me over the last few years. I have never been a "Joiner", but found a home here with like minded folks that are amazing in there own right. And, they also put up with my Faux Pas and poor etiquette, and am most grateful for that! We all have different levels of experience and know how and share that willingly, but we do not beat the teachers because they don't give us the answers or tell us what we "Want" to hear or profess their laziness. Not one person here that I have experience could Ever be considered Lazy. IMHO we are here, in it for the learning as a way of being...or becoming! The Doing is the fun part! I personally cherish that.
I taught Private Post Secondary for ~6 years (engineering design/drafting and Electronics, DC-to Microprocessors) and honestly the best gift I ever gave my students was to teach them how to find out for themselves. They taught me patients and a whole lot of other thing, because I never let a question go unanswered and if I didn't know we went and found out together!!
I am similar to Frank S only in that I am almost as old as rocks, but probably more of a curmudgeon in some ways. I was an engineer (R&D) for 25+ years and dealt with a lot of exotic material science, engineering principles, as well as machine and fabrication over my tenure. I came here primarily to learn about machining and designs, on a cheap and cheerful budget and to figure out how to do things I have had in the back of my mind for years but lacked the physical aspects of machine work to bring them forward. Franks Tag line "Never try to tell me it can't be done" is pretty much the defacto standard around here. My tag line is something my father used to tell me over the years. We all step up to the plate with and for one another here, but bashing and banging around here, generally peters out pretty quickly.
As for your M6, I knew what it was when you posted it. I have been around fire arms most of my life and highly respect gun smiths (craftsmen in the true sense) and known some amazing ones over my decades. What concerns me and brings out the curmudgeon in me is this trend to make weapons/fire arms from off the shelf parts with no regard for the engineering that proceeds and advances them nor the safety they represent. If the 2 pipe couplers poorly welded together are representative of your breach, please consider the chamber pressures for a 410 shell to black pipe properties.
Regarding the Riffling buttons, Franks article/website is a wonderful resource. Thank you Frank! However from my perspective as an engineer, the tooling and precision grinding of the OD/twist accurately to build one is Not a cheap and cheerful variety nor are the materials and the science behind them. This is not to say that weapons makers/forgers from old didn't use crude techniques but they were using hand made black powders of poor ingredients, not modern engineered ammo/powders and casings...plus many were hurt and maimed in the process of learning. I am totally interested in this field and read a lot, ready to learn more about rifling, but honestly with my shop, experience and expertise I would not consider building one.
Maybe some of the great gun smith's here will step in, and I look forward to that! However, IMHO think you will need to approach it here at least, with a bit more honey and humility...perhaps you can then obtain your Gold.
Thank You's to Frank S and C-Bag for your enlightening views! ~PJ
Last edited by PJs; 04-11-2016 at 02:30 PM.
‘‘Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest.’’
Well guys I think I will pack it in I cant see how I am going to make the parts by hand and with no rifiling tools and know how I am fighting my self I am not a quitter but even a bulldog knows when to let go. I just want thank all you guys who gave me support and advice and lots of good information. My only choice is to buy a .22 barrel or liner and this would defeat my chalange of hand building every thing. unless I can rifle my barrel I have a nice pile of junk
What several ,myself included have suggested was to buy the barrel for the .22 instead of trying to make one on your first attempt at constructing a fire arm.you wouldn't even need to buy a M6 scout barrel just one with enough meat in it to be machined to fit the receiver you would still be making your barrel just starting out with one that was already designed to be a rifle barrel.
You haven't mentioned the .410 barrel at all except in the beginning. this needs to be a quality tube as well. not some piece of water pipe or whatever.
please read my post in
any machinist or metallurgist here will tell you thast 1036 is a good quality steel that can be hardened immensely, but great care must be taken to prevent it from becoming brittle.I found in the build of the cannon that when left in its as machined state , which is just what I had done, when the pressures of the firing of the large cartridge that was to be used the steel expanded beyond the limits of fit tolerances I had on the threads causing them to lock together.
OK I may be talking apples and lemons here because the pressures of a 3 inch long .410 shell are in no way near the the pressures we had but the results are the same Wrong materials not taking proper measures to insure any machined or welded parts are properly heat treated and normalized can be disastrous.
using a factory barrel is not cheating in a totally hand made gun build . it is good insurance to know you may live to build another.
This goes for any homemade build not just guns Safety is the NUMBER ONE priority
you can always build another one later on just the way you want it using nothing but the rawest of processed materials.
technically unless you mine the ore out of the ground and smelt it to bloom then hammer the spongy substance into pig iron reheating adding carbon ash sulfur silicone and other elements until you have forged steel and turned that into the flats, sheets, bars tubes and so forth you can not actually say it was totally done by your own hands.
good luck and don't go away or merely tailor your ambitions to match your current skill set while striving to accomplish your long term goal.
You might even consider buying an eighty percent complete black powder rifle kit to help you learn some about what you are wanting to do.
Research study and research some more until you have every aspect of any build down cold before starting to make the first part
I emailed you directly with an offer of support, in conjunction with what I posted in the 'extending drill bits' thread. I just found this [your] thread and read through it word by word.
I will tell you, and I am dead serious. Gunsmithing, in my mind, is among the most dedicated, craftsman-like, creative of all the trades. It covers those who regulate barrels of double rifles, guys like Frank Pachmayr creating transformation of .45 Auto from defensive pistol to precision paper punch, ones who build an entire rifle - engrave the action - carve the stock, right to the Afghanistan smiths equipping an entire militia.
Unless you stood in front of a Swiss or German Gunsmiths guildhall and pleaded for help, no where on the 'net have I seen such a wealth of relate-able knowledge, AND willing to share, than here on HMT.
I think and guarantee what Frank S, C-Bag, Jon, Kbalch, PJs, my self, (and possibly certain others off-thread) really support your project. Our collected knowledge and span of experience is a resource to tap.
At the same time, just because we've never met you, doesn't mean we are inconsiderate or trying to defuse your M6 project.
All the responses have something in common. We do not want to read about you being hurt, let alone anyone else. The few complications in creating a receiver, barrel, and trigger-sear-hammer-firing pin are all possible to overcome. Those complications are cured with something like insurance; controlling the mechanics & physics happening milliseconds after breech closing, between hammer fall-ignition-muzzle exit.
Frank S's link, and my email have several references to what offer a great starting point.
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Last edited by Toolmaker51; 05-10-2016 at 10:40 PM.
...we'll learn more by wandering than searching...
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