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Thread: Surface plate height gauge adapter for dial indicator holding

  1. #21
    Supporting Member tonyfoale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metric_taper View Post
    The Mitutoyo, a 5 pin:
    i didn't know about the 5 pin o/p. I have some Mitutoyo instruments but they are 4 pin. The cable that I am getting is 4 pin and AFAIK all the chinese stuff is too. I know that, at least the 4 pin, Mitutoyo uses a query/response data format. i.e. Your display unit sends an update request to the device and then it sends you a data packet. The chinese scales send data packets continuously at regular intervals.

    Quote Originally Posted by metric_taper View Post
    If some simple PLC box with an interpreter language existed, that had 16+ I/O with quadrature decoders built in along with up/down counters, so you would not have to do interrupt driven code (did lots of that too), I could see working through to make some machine enhancement devices.
    the Arduino makes this stuff very, very easy. The extent of coding it for interrupts is a single command "ATTACHINTERRUPT(pin no., HIGH/LOW or CHANGING)"

    Quote Originally Posted by metric_taper View Post
    I bet Mitutoyo, does not want anyone to de-crypt their SPC port, as they want to sell the hardware and software. But your right, why wouldn't the low end of China manufactures want to do this, other then they too can sell the reader hardware, as it's useful for a DRO.
    I haven't done it, but others have decoded it and put details on the net, in some cases even with Arduino code.

    Quote Originally Posted by metric_taper View Post
    I have looked into the Arduino, but my interest in learning ANOTHER program language just does not 'titillate' me.
    It didn't appeal to me either, I have been writing code since 1960 and have had to go through several languages along the way. For that reason I was slow to look at the Arduino. I had been using LabJack (labjack.com) for my DAQ and interface needs, that is totally controlled under the PC code and so there was nothing extra to learn, but then I had an application which needed a standalone micro so I was forced to start playing with the Arduino. It is very easy to do quite complex stuff. It has its own IDE for code writing and micro programming through the USB port. The code is C like but you only have to learn a little of the C syntax to be up and running. I am now a convert and wish that I had done it earlier, it would have saved me a lot of time. I now have an application for which the Arduino is not suitable and I'm going to have to use a PI Rasberry. I know little about it but I am NOT looking forward to it, I think it is Linux based and I know nothing about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by metric_taper View Post
    Just this morn, I was looking at how to get Mach3 to work on a computer that does not have a printer port.
    Easy. Use ethernet instead. That's how I control my mill.

    Quote Originally Posted by metric_taper View Post
    I want something super simple, download the code, plug in the interface card to a USB port, hook up the servos, and encoders, and watch the machine move the desired amount.
    With the right hardware, and there is plenty of that around, it can be pretty much that simple. When I have enough time I was going to document my efforts in that direction and post here but it'll need to be long.

    Quote Originally Posted by metric_taper View Post
    Then there's the CAD to learn, and how to build the G code from this. I have several dials that need to me made, so engraving with a 4th axis would be handy.
    Yes I really should learn CAD but I believe that software should be easy to use and the fact that courses are commonplace to teach CAD is enough to indicate that ease of use for newbies is not a built in feature. So far I have managed by hand coding G-code and I have written some software for automatically producing G-code for some specific uses that I have.
    When I graduated, long before PC CAD, I was given a drawing office, so even though I knew how to draw, I had a team of draftsmen to do that for me. Then I had my own business before PC CAD came along and I designed on a drawing board. When PC CAD became available I had little need for drawings so there was no need to learn it. Now it would be useful to be able to use CAD occasionally, but nowhere near enough to warrant the time needed to learn it. Even daily CAD jockeys find some operations difficult to do, let alone an occasional geriatric user.
    A few years ago I was working with a famous race car designer on a project. He said that when he started out in the business, the conversation over the lunch table was about suspension geometry, roll centres and other performance related stuff. When CAD came along he said that the conversations had changed to "how do I draw this". For this project he ordered a huge drawing board so that he could layout full size prints of the car. he was a skilled CAD jockey himself but nothing replaced the full size version that you could pencil draw on.

  2. #22
    Supporting Member mklotz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltfever View Post
    Very nice idea but I have only seen this used on critical bolting applications. Do you have a pic, or a brand that can be used in metrology? I assume Rennishaw, CMMs, and other probing applications use this idea but it appears to be imbedded in code and not readily visible the user. What DTI is available to use manually?
    There are numerous makers of tenths DTIs. My preference is for Mitutoyo, such as these...

    "Quick Set" Dial Test Indicators

    but Brown & Sharpe, Interapid and Starrett are quality brands.
    ---
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  3. #23
    Supporting Member metric_taper's Avatar
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    Tony:
    I need to research the Ethernet interface to Mach3, but the controllers all seem to want the printer port, I need to look further.

    I never liked the syntax of "C", but I did have to do collateral work on designs of others, amazingly, it never stayed in my head, unlike BASIC, FORTRAN, PL1, PASCAL and any number of Assembly mnemonics. But I'm believing the only low cost kits I see are Arduino based development. I also see many frustrated coders on blog sites trying to figure out where they went wrong, especially with quad encoder, as they are servicing this with interrupt vs having a peripheral counter.

    There was a CAD program a few weeks ago I downloaded "freeCAD", which was a frustration to work with. I too had the minions that did the draftting at work. I did learn AutoCAD, but it was mostly 2d type drawings. The one thing I liked about it, if a few years pass between uses, I could pick up, and start drawing without any effort.

    I did find a cheep DRO kit (yet to be installed on the drill press X-Y table and quill) to use a 4 pin interface. But I purchased the reader for that, which has a X-Y-Z LCD display. I don't think there was a way to get an external data stream. But my want was to be able to drill a matrix of holes automatically. Another wayside project.

    Looking at your casting of a 4 stroke intake, exhaust port, cylinder head geometry, and measuring flow, and computing flow rate improvement is a SERIOUS petro head hobby. I didn't see from your text, what DAS you had to do this. But clearly you are "in deep" with IP of engine design. Looks like you are working with a 'hemi' configuration.

    I didn't understand the shear tool, as it looks more like it's burnishing the work vs scraping. I'm missing something.

    Steve, lots more to read of your skills.

  4. #24
    Supporting Member tonyfoale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metric_taper View Post
    Tony:
    I need to research the Ethernet interface to Mach3, but the controllers all seem to want the printer port, I need to look further.
    Steve,
    I bought a Bridgeport mill which had been fitted from new with an Anilam control and driver system. Which was definitely old tech when I got it. It worked OK but the RS232 port and proprietry mini-tape recorder/reader refused all efforts at communication, which meant that I had to punch in the programme each time I wanted to use it. This got tiring real quick so I started to look around for a replacement controller which could be PC driven. I had perfectly good servos, motor drivers and glass slides which I wanted to keep. I also had duplicates of all that. Whilst i found stacks of systems out there they all seemed to be aimed at or included stepper motors and rotary encoders. Apart from the expense of replacing everything I had no intention of downgrading from the servos and linear slides. Finding a suitable controller was not easy but I ended up going for a Galil card with 4 axis. More costly than I was planning but top quality stuff and worked with Mach3 with a plug-in and ethernet. It also did the processing on the card rather than in the PC. Mach3 basically said "I want to here" and the Galil card worked out how to. the PI in PID was done on the card and the D was done within the original drivers. So it was a closed loop system with the card closing the loop with Mach3 working open loop just sending demands. On a Windows OS with all its quirks this is probably the best way to do it. Although I don't do Linux I would have gone to Linux CNC except that it was not compatible with the Galil. I have recently learnt that Galil now have some Linux support so I may revisit it.
    All this is a long way of saying how I used ethernet with Mach3.

    Quote Originally Posted by metric_taper View Post
    I never liked the syntax of "C", but I did have to do collateral work on designs of others, amazingly, it never stayed in my head, unlike BASIC, FORTRAN, PL1, PASCAL and any number of Assembly mnemonics. But I'm believing the only low cost kits I see are Arduino based development. I also see many frustrated coders on blog sites trying to figure out where they went wrong, especially with quad encoder, as they are servicing this with interrupt vs having a peripheral counter.
    i have never liked C syntax either. I started with Fortran IV, hand written fixed format coding sheets and punched cards. I avoided BASIC where possible, now I mostly use Delphi, which is object Pascal for Windows. I agree that a peripheral counter is preferable but as long as the frequency is not too high, interrupts do the job. A side effect of the uptake of the Arduino and other systems which provide easy ways to use micros is that a large proportion of users do not have much in the way of coding or other technical skills so you get a lot of frustrated coders as you observe. It is not an indication that it is difficult, in fact it is the reverse.

    Quote Originally Posted by metric_taper View Post
    Looking at your casting of a 4 stroke intake, exhaust port, cylinder head geometry, and measuring flow, and computing flow rate improvement is a SERIOUS petro head hobby. I didn't see from your text, what DAS you had to do this. But clearly you are "in deep" with IP of engine design. Looks like you are working with a 'hemi' configuration.
    I mostly use a LabJack for collecting data. The engines that get most of my attention are Aermacchi 4 strokes (HD sprints in American). In the early 1970s I raced them and when I started classic racing in my dotage I decided to race a replica of what I used to use.

    Quote Originally Posted by metric_taper View Post
    I didn't understand the shear tool, as it looks more like it's burnishing the work vs scraping. I'm missing something.
    The best I can offer by way of explanation, is to imagine the shear tool being dragged across a non-rotating work piece, I think that will show a shaping action. Shear tool is not my term and I don't like it because it causes confusion, but it is the accepted term for that type of tool.

  5. #25
    Supporting Member Saltfever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mklotz View Post
    There are numerous makers of tenths DTIs. My preference is for Mitutoyo, such as these...

    "Quick Set" Dial Test Indicators

    but Brown & Sharpe, Interapid and Starrett are quality brands.
    This is hilarious. In all my years in the industry I have never been exposed to DTI as a “dial” test indicator. While “dial indicator” is basic machinist language the Test indicator in my environment was always referred as just a test indicator. The word “test” was the defining characteristic since it had better resolution and a more versatile body.

    When you mentioned “DTI” I googled it and came up with Digital Tension Indicator. That seemed to fit in perfectly with the theme of this thread and I thought I had missed yet another nugget of wisdom. That led to my reply requesting information about your device for “digital tension measurement” and my reference to probing programs.

    The absolute king of acronym use is still the military followed closely by the medical field. However, in its short life compared to the others, the digital world is now just as cryptic. ROTFLMAO at my misunderstanding and apologies to all.
    Last edited by Saltfever; 04-18-2017 at 09:16 PM.

  6. #26
    Supporting Member mklotz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltfever View Post
    This is hilarious. In all my years in the industry I have never been exposed to DTI as a “dial” test indicator. While “dial indicator” is basic machinist language the Test indicator in my environment was always referred as just a test indicator. The word “test” was the defining characteristic since it had better resolution and a more versatile body.

    When you mentioned “DTI” I googled it and came up with Digital Tension Indicator. That seemed to fit in perfectly with the theme of this thread and I thought I had missed yet another nugget of wisdom. That led to my reply requesting information about your device for “digital tension measurement” and my reference to probing programs.

    The absolute king of acronym use is still the military followed closely by the medical field. However, in its short life compared to the others, the digital world is now just as cryptic. ROTFLMAO at my misunderstanding and apologies to all.
    I have to admit that, in your first post, you seemed to have not connected with what I had written, but, being unsure and not wishing to offend, I let it slide.

    I'm a self-taught, completely amateur, hobbyist machinist. I've never spent a day on the shop floor nor have I ever worked in a machine shop. As a result, there are the inevitable gaps in my knowledge of both technique and terminology. I've always heard it referred to as a DTI so that's the term I use.

    In some support of that terminology, if you visit the Acronym Finder website...

    Abbreviations and acronyms dictionary

    and enter DTI, "Dial Test Indicator" shows up, right above "Direct Tension Indicator", so the term must be in general use somewhere.

    ROTFLBTCDICAJTTWADBSIHPWTRHITSBKABAYB is arguably the longest acronym known but I've never seen it used. If you can't unravel it, it's decoded here...

    Urban Dictionary: ROTFLBTCDICAJTTWADBSIHPWTRHITSBKABAYB
    ---
    Regards, Marv


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  7. #27
    Supporting Member tonyfoale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mklotz View Post
    I'm a self-taught, completely amateur, hobbyist machinist. I've never spent a day on the shop floor nor have I ever worked in a machine shop.
    Marv,
    Just a bit of common sense is enough to substitute for all the training in the world.
    Amateurs do stuff because they have an interest, many professionals do it only to put food on the table. Never under estimate a talented amateur.

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  9. #28
    Supporting Member metric_taper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mklotz View Post
    I have to admit that, in your first post, you seemed to have not connected with what I had written, but, being unsure and not wishing to offend, I let it slide.

    I'm a self-taught, completely amateur, hobbyist machinist. I've never spent a day on the shop floor nor have I ever worked in a machine shop. As a result, there are the inevitable gaps in my knowledge of both technique and terminology. I've always heard it referred to as a DTI so that's the term I use.

    In some support of that terminology, if you visit the Acronym Finder website...

    Abbreviations and acronyms dictionary

    and enter DTI, "Dial Test Indicator" shows up, right above "Direct Tension Indicator", so the term must be in general use somewhere.

    ROTFLBTCDICAJTTWADBSIHPWTRHITSBKABAYB is arguably the longest acronym known but I've never seen it used. If you can't unravel it, it's decoded here...

    Urban Dictionary: ROTFLBTCDICAJTTWADBSIHPWTRHITSBKABAYB
    I knew exactly what DTI meant, as it was in context to this whole thread. So I was confused by Saltfever writing on "bolting applications", then it came clear with the next post.

    I got "Rolling On The Floor", but no way I could guess the rest of it.

    From avionics background, three letter acronyms (TLA) are how all technical discussions are shortened (that's probably true in all technical arenas). I remember when I started work, having to learn this new language until you didn't have to translate them in your mind. And much time was spent assigning TLA's when new functions or black boxes, (which use TLA for it's name, e.g. FCC, FMC, ADS and minions more), were conceived. There's 26 cubed available, not all usable. The software code was limited to 8 character names back when main frames were the computing power. Lots of creative coding names to pretend we had some structure to the code.
    So one of smartest guys I worked with, in autopilot flight control, created a variable PDMWTRD, "Please Don't Mess With The Radio Data", which was a Boolean sent to the navigation radios that was intended to stop them from going into test mode (pilot sitting in seat can push a test button), when the autopilot was coupled to their output and flying a course based on their data (VOR, ILS, and such). To this day I can remember what this meant.

    Steve
    Last edited by metric_taper; 04-20-2017 at 02:36 PM.

  10. #29
    Supporting Member tonyfoale's Avatar
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    Back in the 1970s and early 80s motorcycle manufacturers fell in love with TLAs for various features. I built a bike with an unusual front suspension. see here; https://get.google.com/albumarchive/...KTd4JKeMncxv5F

    One day the editor of a motorcycle magazine came to my workshop to prepare an article on it. He wanted to know what to call it and as a dig at the common use of TLAs I said that he could call it an FFE. He insisted that I tell him what it meant, after a bit of mock reticence i relented and said that it stood for "Funny Front End". He was aghast and complained that he couldn't write that. He continued badgering me for another name and I told him that I had been joking before and its real name was BSS. Again he insisted on the expanded version which of course was "Bloody Silly Steering". He gave up after that and wrote in his article that while I took my engineering seriously, I didn't with much else.

    Oh, BTW. The real name was FFE and that TLA seems to have stuck and has been taken up widely. I never used BSS again.

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  12. #30
    Supporting Member mklotz's Avatar
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    Klotz's conjecture states...

    By now, every TLA has a meaning somewhere in the world in some language.
    ---
    Regards, Marv


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