English/metric measurement error in the Mars Climate Orbiter

[Hans Pearson]

Theory without practice is sterile but practice without theory is blind.

[NortonDommi]

Hi 12bolts,
Your examples are hilarious! It's a long time since I have laughed so hard as Your description was so good I felt as if I was there.
Your statement of Tertiary educated people that think theory is equal to reality is so true. By the way I have a Trade Certificate to prove I completed 9000 hrs of theory and practice though the theory I am still working on as things change so I have a tertiary education like every other tradesman.
There are a few books written by Robert Townsend,(nothing to do with music), on management practices and he stresses that nobody knows the job like those actually doing it and nearly all people doing anything that involves the body as well as the mind can develop shortcuts and efficient work practices so they should be allowed to do what they know does or will work.
It has also been my experience that people with a trade who then decide to obtain a degree or higher usually have a need to do so and are exactly the sort of person that I want directing the show if it is not me as they usually have "street smarts' when it comes to job approach .

[Jack55]

Hello All, This discussion prompted me to make my first post. My father worked for a coal company in the 50's. They wanted him and his crew to float a pump out onto the surface of a tailings pond. The engineer in charge gave them a sketch for a set of pontoons to be fabricated out of steel pipe. A couple of the men were WWII Navy Seabees so they knew how things float, but they also followed orders. They fabricated the pontoons to spec, mounted the pump and pulled it out into the pond, where it promptly sank. As they were dragging it out of the pond the engineer showed up, pondered the problem and came up with a brilliant solution. He told them to weld a couple of valve stems onto the pontoons and fill them with air. Don't know if they followed that order or not.

[Henri]

That was fascinating, Jon! A few things to sort out before they send humans, not so?

[NortonDommi]

Marv,
Trojan Horse is correct, I was not demeaning education,(something I value very highly), or every person with a University degree.
Your comments regarding education being undervalued or demeaned in today's society may be correct and if so has been bought about by the actions and attitude of those with degrees in subjects like social politics, futurology ect. and the attitude of others with degrees in similar subjects when it comes to employment.
For example I went for a job as an inhouse tool salesman but was told I would not be considered because I did not have a degree - in anything. If I had had a degree in the mating habits of Polar Bears I proberly would have gotten the job. It is this elitist attitude by an ever increasing number of people that have degrees that are of no real use that causes trades people like me to coin the term 'University Educated Idiot'. There are a lot of them. Respect is earned not given by demand.
The ability to learn and continue to learn are to be highly prized and today with access to the interweb many younger people are becoming increasingly eclectic in their thirst for knowledge, Maker Magazine is a good example of this.
One thing that annoys me is the way in which the education system in the Western world has been hijacked by 'wally's' with wacky theories the result being that there are many University graduates who cannot understand any written word with more than three syllables, cannot understand mathematics beyond simple arithmetic etc. I would like to see mathematics, reading and writing,(the 3 R's), taught before anything else as this allows an individual to learn anything they wish.
To return to where this all diverged, the failures you cite are not to do with Imperial or Metric systems and mix-ups they are directly attributable to a PERSON and/or PEOPLE not thinking about what they are meant to be doing and a SYSTEM FAILURE in that mistakes were not picked up. What level of education did the people involved have?
I was once told that "perfection is no small thing and the path to perfection lies in attention to the small things." Something I try,(not always successfully), to apply to anything I do and I hope that everyone I deal with does the same.
I am sad that you took personal offence at my comments.

- Barry.

[NortonDommi]

As an addendum to the last perhaps I should perhaps add that,(in my opinion),it is accademia that seems to be the root cause of the problem as it is in those lofty realms that the policies of societal engineering are formulated the 'trickle down' effect of which only surfaces one or two generations later.

[Papa Smurf]

High intellect, high levels of academic achievement and many years of appropriate experience, in whatever combination, are unable to inoculate a man from the effects of his own (often momentary) inattention (some call it stupidity). Every one of us bears scars of instances when we forgot about gravity, electricity, chemical activity, high (or very low) temperatures, etc. They are rightly called "Laws of Nature" - there are penalties for breaking them, and we've all tried, consciously or unconsciously.

As an afterthought, because of the serious nature of the consequences of a failure, both the nuclear and aerospace industries have developed systems designed to monitor adherence to known safe behaviours (yes, that spelling is correct where I live ), since a human behavioural error can jeopardise the most carefully designed and constructed plant or machine.

Also remember that the development of new technologies most often begins with the inquiring mind and disciplined thought processes of the academic attempting to better understand a particular Law of Nature. The technologist/engineer takes the theoretical idea and finds ways to impliment and industrialise it. The artisan has his part to play in the rollout and maintenance/repair. To poke fun of any part in that chain reduces the likelihood that the original idea will give its potential benefit to mankind.

[NortonDommi]

I seem to recall that Nikola Tesla attended a university to obtain a degree in order to be taken seriously and made it a mission to destroy a professor that denigrated his ideas and theories. He was not the only person to have done this in recent history, others have obtained degrees in order to apply for patents.
Once medical practitioners or 'Doctors' were of the highest standing in society. Today many of them.their practices and the ideas they promote are dubious to say the least.
High intellect does not necessarily equate to high academic achievement, a visit to any prison anywhere will attest to this fact.
Once only the rich and the exceptional were able to gain 'higher' education. Today anyone you can take on debt can attend and courses are tabled accordingly to foster pass rates and revenue. With anyone able to access the interweb the highest skill is weeding the wheat from the chaff so to speak.
Smart kids today are getting information they need to accomplish a task from many sources. This has pro's and con's. For example what happens if you have a burning passion for a subject but can't afford to go to university. What if the only way to advance on the path of your desire is denied due to cost. What if you don't know how to determine what is a fact and what is not. The latter is where guidance is needed. Critical thinking can be taught sadly it rarely is.
My personal belief is that a sea change is coming and that 'we' the human collective will start promoting universities as a place for the most gifted minds in society not just a place to go and get a piece of meaningless paper. This belief/hope is based on the ever increasing costs of not only attending but also supplying education.
Academics have their place but to paraphrase the words of Carroll Smith,(a great engineer).when he stated."an accountant is a glorified bean counter. you employ them to count your beans not to tell you what to do with them".
In other words the academics will always need competent.skilled.practical people and hopefully we will in the future have a fusion.
In our lifetimes it is all academic speculation.

[Jon]

It's a nuanced and fascinating issue. I agree that the college bubble has burst, but for certain fields (specifically the hard sciences) the need to systematically transmit a large body of knowledge will continue to necessitate a formal long-term education.

We do seem to be at a tipping point where the common internet intellectual is challenging the value of the person with a common college degree. At the same time, controversial college admissions processes are chipping away at the merit-driven reputations that elite universities once held.

[NortonDommi]

I'm 100% in agreement that the 'hard sciences' whose body of knowledge was built up over millennia needs to be taught in a structured environment,however that learning environment needs to be flexible and allow for discoveries or theories that are at divergence with the accepted norm.
Nikola Tesla is a prime example. He is cited only because his name is recognisable by many, and some of his achievements well known.
Universities,(as we understand them), it is generally accepted were founded in Greece to foster free thought, discussion of theories and debate. Unfortunately it would be very difficult if not impossible to find one operating on those principles today. Far to many invested egos.
Petty squabbles belong in a pub discussed over a beer or wine.