Irrigation Flow System

When a home irrigation system develops a leak, it can cost hundreds of dollars before the problem is noticed. My last leak cost me $300. That was enough to stimulate developing a system that monitors irrigation water flow and shuts down problem zones. It also sounds an alarm plus drives a display to tell me what is wrong. The cost of this system was around $150.

I see this design saving a great deal of water and my hope is that someone picks it up and brings it to market. I do not seek nor will I accept any money from them.

If you are interested, please see

http://rick.sparber.org/electronics/FMC.pdf


Your comments are welcome. All of us are smarter than any one of us.

I think you've got an excellent idea here. Also, the work that went into documenting it is a major contribution to those of us with less skill developing that type of device. Thank you for sharing your work.

I downloaded your .pdf and intend to study it.

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Originally Posted by extropic

I think you've got an excellent idea here. Also, the work that went into documenting it is a major contribution to those of us with less skill developing that type of device. Thank you for sharing your work.

I downloaded your .pdf and intend to study it.

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Thanks for the encouragement. Although this took about 9 months to develop, it is the easy part. The hard part is to turn it into a product and market it. I'm hoping others pick up the ball and run with it. As a society, we must find ways to save water. Preventing irrigation leaks is both painless and cost effective.

Congratulations rgsparber - your Irrigation Flow System is the Homemade Tool of the Week!

Very useful tool, and great documentation too. This system can save water, prevent damage, and eliminate the constant stress of an impending high bill.

Other nice entries this week:

Lantern Chuck by jjr2001
Tailstock Uncenter by Captainleeward
Lathe Spindle Handwheel by jjr2001
Clutch Push Rod Modification by olderdan
Replaceable Tip Screwdriver by Captainleeward
Vise Restoration by Vyacheslav.Nevolya
Lathe Spindle Spider by jjr2001
Action Camera Holder by Make Everything

rgsparber - you'll be receiving a $25 online gift card, in your choice of Amazon, PayPal, or bitcoin. Please PM me your current email address and gift card choice and I'll get it sent over right away.

We'll be adding your tool entry to our All Homemade Tool of the Week winners post.

This is your 2nd Homemade Tool of the Week win. Here's your last winning tool:

<div id="blocks"> <div class="block b1 pngfix"> <div class="bimg"> <div> <a href="https://www.homemadetools.net/forum/using-x-box-controller-centroid-cnc-system-63108#post98087"><img src="https://www.homemadetools.net/uploads/204077/homemade-cnc-controller.jpeg"/></a></div> </div> <div class="head pngfix"></div> <div class="left pngfix"></div> <div class="right pngfix"></div> <div class="blockover b1 pngfix"> <div class="title"> <a href="https://www.homemadetools.net/forum/using-x-box-controller-centroid-cnc-system-63108#post98087">CNC Controller</a> <span> by <a href="/builder/Rick+Sparber">Rick Sparber</a></span> </div> <div class="tags">tags: <a href="https://www.homemadetools.net/tag/CNC">CNC</a>, <a href="https://www.homemadetools.net/tag/controller">controller</a></div> </div> </div> </div>

I did something like that a couple of years ago, my box just checks flow rates and quantity. Had a terrible time finding out what the standards were for setting the K factor and offset.
https://wb8nbs.wordpress.com/2015/10...-flow-sensors/

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Originally Posted by wb8nbs

I did something like that a couple of years ago, my box just checks flow rates and quantity. Had a terrible time finding out what the standards were for setting the K factor and offset.
https://wb8nbs.wordpress.com/2015/10...-flow-sensors/

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Very nice write up. Clear and easy to follow.

I also looked at using a turbine to sense flow. They are very low cost and generate a nice pulse. However, I felt that they would not be accurate enough, especially at low flow rates. At high rates, they also become inaccurate.

The Badger Model 25 is a very common water meter used by water departments and has been around for a long time. I compared it to the city's water meter and found that each revolution of its "nutating" disk equals 0.028 gallons. If it wasn't accurate, there would be law suits. The big down side of using this meter is the adapter I had to build in order to pick up the disk rotation and turn it into a pulse.

Rick

Rick, that is an exemplary write up on your complex system and impressive R&D to a working system. Thank you and congratulations on tool of the week. I LOL'd on the spaghetti code as I have had to untangle of number of those plates on PLC stuff back in the day...it takes time but worth it on efficiency and memory space. From your write up people may also get some clarity as to why R&D isn't cheap but so worth it in the long run to do it right! Perhaps Jon might consider this project for a longer term higher award as it's truly impressive IMHO. :hattip: ~PJ

P.S. Nothing like a diamond back to get your attention first thing in the morning!! Wow

PJ,

Thanks for the very generous words. I'm sure glad I didn't have to document all of my rework of the software!

I see that you found my "Easter egg" ;-)

We live in the desert and it always bothers me to see gushers running for hours on end. Recently, there has been a fire storm of angry people complaining about their water bills. In most cases, I think they are due to irrigation leaks. Some bills jumped over $2000 in one month.

You have to wonder about the economic incentives at hand. How do cities generally handle water sales? Public? Private? Subsidized?

I've heard the thousand-dollar horror stories as well. But I wonder what the average citizen pays each month for water leaks. And what does the average city profit each month in water leaks?

Are there any incentives present for municipal water suppliers to address leaks? Or is it in their best interest to just look the other way, and to profit generously from homeowner water leaks?

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Originally Posted by Jon

You have to wonder about the economic incentives at hand. How do cities generally handle water sales? Public? Private? Subsidized?

I've heard the thousand-dollar horror stories as well. But I wonder what the average citizen pays each month for water leaks. And what does the average city profit each month in water leaks?

Are there any incentives present for municipal water suppliers to address leaks? Or is it in their best interest to just look the other way, and to profit generously from homeowner water leaks?

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Here in Phoenix the water comes from the city. No way to know if they make a profit from it. However, when people get this giant bills, the public anger is high and at least one local politician uses it to his advantage. He sides with the "wronged" public and beats up the water department. All the water department can say is that they have verified their billing system is accurate. If in doubt, people can read the meter themselves. I did that for about a year and our numbers always matched.

One thing people do not understand is that the city owns up to and including the meter. Any leak after the meter belongs to the owner of the property. Leaks before the meter do not register and are fixed by the city. No surprise there except to those irate customers.

We have many organizations both in local government and in the community that work hard to reduce our water usage. They understand that if we run out of water, the city will be abandoned. The water we get from the Colorado River comes from Lake Mead which is dangerously low.

My goal is to have this Flow Monitor and Control turned into a product and to have every home in the Phoenix Metro area running one. I hope that who ever brings it to market make a lot of money. I'd just be thrilled to have an impact on our water problem.

Rick and Jon,

Rick: I think what you've done and your desire for it to be a product for everyone is spot on, a worthy cause and very admirable. I don't have PCAD software anymore otherwise I'd offer to help, but think it relatively easy to get some of the DeVry students in Phoenix to work on it as a school project. They could get it onto a board (PWA) for you. I still have some sources for board houses, the balance is just sourcing hardware, meters and such. I hear you about Lake Mead and was long a supporter of Mono Lake and some of the less damnamic issues with Hetch Hetchy...but LA keeps sucking it all dry and the ground has sunk significantly in the south valley where the crops are grown.

Jon: We do need to wonder about the source/end use, leak issues and profit to the city/county coffers, but it may be too late at some level for individuals to take action. Between Sonoma and Napa county there are close to 100k acres of grapes for wine and have often wondered about their irrigation systems and how much they use/lose...but the real question is who drinks all that wine?

I've been following water issues since the early droughts (mid 70's) we've experience in CA. Here are a couple of articles from Global Research and Scientific American from 2012/13 and there has been a lot of water under the bridge so to speak since. Just do a search on "buying up water rights" or "water Barons". A Rabbit hole everyone should be aware of.

I'm not sure what the answers are but I think Rick has something here if the costs can be kept down in manufacture. Probably enough said on my part. Wouldn't want to disturb the peace around here.

Great Project Rick, Thanks again for sharing it! :hattip: ~PJ

PJs,

The circuit board is minor. One stumbling block is the flow sensor. I provided a proof of concept, not an off the shelf part.

I’ve only done 10% of the work. Product development, manufacturing, packaging, marketing, and distribution make up the rest. And since there is no patent protection, raising capital may be a problem.

I have contacted many local cities plus nonprofits. Maybe one or more of them will pick it up.

Did you search the patent database for any existing IP conflicts?

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Originally Posted by Jon

Did you search the patent database for any existing IP conflicts?

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I don't need to worry about patent infringement because I'm giving my idea away and not selling it. Part of bringing it to market would be to worry about such things. Of course, no one can patent my design because it is already in the public domain. Such is the joy of "defensive publishing".

Rick

I only found this out recently when researching another homemade tool from this forum, but US patent law specifies a legal restriction against anyone who would "make, use, offer to sell, or sell" a patented invention. Obviously, making/using is rarely or never a legitimate issue over which people litigate patents, but if your invention ever makes it big, even if you donate it freely, you might have to fend off some patent trolls. More here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/35/271 .

I wonder if such an invention is already patented, and the patent is quietly held by an entity that profits from wasted water.

"a legal restriction against anyone who would "make, use, offer to sell, or sell" a patented invention"

"Use a patented invention" suggests that you may be disobeying the law even if you buy a copy from the patent holder and use it as intended. Sounds like lawyer (spit) shotgun verbiage to me.

Don't forget the "without authority" phrasing.

This all seemed insane to me upon first reading - why restrict making and using a patented product, absent of commerciality? One explanation I thought of was that entities could destroy the value of others' IP simply by building their patented inventions, and giving them away for free.

Or they could do quid pro quo deals with charities: a company donates to a charity, and that charity uses the money to build and distribute a rival company's patented invention. There's really no way you can avoid the nefarious obfuscation of a commercial relationship, so you're left with the option of blanket forbidding all making, commercial or not.

Of course, litigating a patent is costly, and a company would be reputationally damaged if they sued Joe DIYer for fabricating something in his garage for personal use. I think this may be why we don't hear of it happening very often.

I have found two companies that sell flow monitor and control systems so it is not a new idea. They focus on commercial properties and not residential.

There is always a chance that I could be sued for anything I invent. The best I can do is have a good paper trail.

There is nothing in the hardware that is new. The software is all mine so can’t have been copyrighted or patented.

Keep us posted. Very exciting invention.

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Originally Posted by rgsparber

PJs,

The circuit board is minor. One stumbling block is the flow sensor. I provided a proof of concept, not an off the shelf part.

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I disagree that the PWA is a minor issue. I started to go into detail that using an Arduino Piggy-back board in a commercial system would not be wise...then thought better of it. I intended to say that putting a MCU and associated circuits on the PWA would make it more unique and robust and having the students work all that out and apply your code (untangled & optimized) would be a great undergrad project. Yes the flow sensor is a bit of a stumbling block either to a second op the existing or find one or a type that would work to deliver signals. Perhaps a mass flow or ultrasonic system would be able to send better quality signals reliably. You have a Working Model/Prototype IMHO, and yes it is a proof of concept at a base level.

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I’ve only done 10% of the work. Product development, manufacturing, packaging, marketing, and distribution make up the rest. And since there is no patent protection, raising capital may be a problem.

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Perhaps 10% but more likely 40% IMHO. Product development never ends really unless it has a defined lifetime. Manufacturing on a product like this is relatively simple other than the QA tooling and procedures. Again Packaging is also minor to me and could give 20 sources in 10 minutes for off the shelf suppliers, and the second op work if necessary could be relatively simple and most of the suppliers are willing to do them for you. Labeling can be a bit tricky if you wanted push buttons or front panel access to the MCU...but easily doable. As for marketing, Yes I agree and first on the list is to be reconnoitered is "How big of a problem are leaks in agricultural and residential systems" and "How does does this system compare to other conservation techniques in effectivity" and developing a metric to analyze these and other questions. Then it starts to get into the ROI of it in the style marketing (hi-volume/low $ or Visa versa) or something in between...and can be a Pit & the Pendulum if not handled wisely with people of integrity.

Regarding Patent and Capital. Others have stated the issues prior to this post and agree with Jon at the point of liability. There have been a significant number and growing, of flagrant patent suits, particularly in the 3d printing by Charlatans with money behind them obtaining so called "Rights" and suing the unsuspecting dole that had a good idea. Yes Patents are expensive, mainly because the Lier's became involved, but a conceptual patent may be feasible, but I don't know that for sure. Personally I have never believed in using Vulture Capitalist and we have a lot more crowd funding methods available now.

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I have contacted many local cities plus nonprofits. Maybe one or more of them will pick it up.

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Glad that you have contacted others to maybe get this off the ground and run with it...hopefully the give you some credit if they do. It's clear you have no real want to pursue this to production and I understand that...it does not negate the fact that you started with a need, came up with a plan, designed and built a working system on a shoe string budget with a lot of BS&T and passed it on freely to this community. My main point with this is to Thank you for that, offer some enthusiasm for a great job and its possibilities...but not create another episode of Downton Abbey, nor to disturb the sanctity of the community!

Tilde Then, ~PJ

PJ,

The one thing I am positive about in all of this is that a patent IS impossible for anyone to get on this work. I have already defensively published it so now the flow monitor and control is in the public domain. It would be like trying to patent the wheel.

As for the circuit, I expect that the product would be all SMT and not use the Pro Micro at all. Really not a big deal. I wish I could say the same for the flow meter. It must be accurate over a wide range of flow rates yet be low cost. A turbine based flow meter isn't going to cut it. Might have to approach Badger and have them make a special version with a pulse output. They make some that way but the closest I could see was one pulse per gallon. I need about one pulse per 0.03 gallons. That comes out to one pulse per rotation of the nutating disk. The magnetic pick up must be Hall Effect because a reed switch can't keep up nor have the longevity. Fortunately, the body of the meter would not need to be modified.

Rick,

My professional experience in flow measurement & control is with Mass flow (DP/SP/temp), thermal mass flow and velocity for gasses and particulates. As I indicated before I thought your flow measurement could be done with Mass flow or Ultrasonic. Converting either to pulse output would result in a loss of all the accuracy and possibilities for control they offer.

I do still think that ultrasonic would do a lot for your system but would require considerable changes to your input and likely the code. This also assumes you are using city drinking water that has a good/relatively constant conductivity for the low flow rates.

The only other possibilities I see is a Mag Meter front end and it's also non invasive, which could be converted to pulses but would require some coils, additional power/circuits to read them and some messing around with calibration then convert that to a pulse through some kind of circuit...a comparator/inverter to (74LS121) monostable multivibrator or a couple of nor gates and RC, maybe??

The links have good +/- write ups. Also ran across this white paper on a unique Mass Flow measurement.

Not sure what type of prox sensor you tried but would think that would work. There are three basic types inductive, capacitive & magnetic in 4 flavors NPN/PNP/NO/NC....

I also took a look at the Hunter offerings and they have some nice features at reasonable prices, including 2 wire pulsed output and their controllers have wifi for decent costs I thought based on features.

Other than that, getting Badger to build it in based on your design is a plausible direction??

Best of luck with where ever you take this. ~PJ

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Originally Posted by PJs

Rick,

My professional experience in flow measurement & control is with Mass flow (DP/SP/temp), thermal mass flow and velocity for gasses and particulates. As I indicated before I thought your flow measurement could be done with Mass flow or Ultrasonic. Converting either to pulse output would result in a loss of all the accuracy and possibilities for control they offer.

I do still think that ultrasonic would do a lot for your system but would require considerable changes to your input and likely the code. This also assumes you are using city drinking water that has a good/relatively constant conductivity for the low flow rates.

The only other possibilities I see is a Mag Meter front end and it's also non invasive, which could be converted to pulses but would require some coils, additional power/circuits to read them and some messing around with calibration then convert that to a pulse through some kind of circuit...a comparator/inverter to (74LS121) monostable multivibrator or a couple of nor gates and RC, maybe??

The links have good +/- write ups. Also ran across this white paper on a unique Mass Flow measurement.

Not sure what type of prox sensor you tried but would think that would work. There are three basic types inductive, capacitive & magnetic in 4 flavors NPN/PNP/NO/NC....

I also took a look at the Hunter offerings and they have some nice features at reasonable prices, including 2 wire pulsed output and their controllers have wifi for decent costs I thought based on features.

Other than that, getting Badger to build it in based on your design is a plausible direction??

Best of luck with where ever you take this. ~PJ

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Picking the best flow meter is part of turning my proof of concept into a real product. However,
I have contacted Badger about a modified meter. My hope is that they will see it as a new market.

The Arduino does have a decent analog to digital converter so a flow meter with an analog output could be made to work just fine.

The proximity sensor I tried is inductive with an NPN output. I use them on my CNC mill with good results so it really surprised me that I could not find a sweet spot on the top of the Badger meter. I did use a small magnet to map out the structure of the steel. Also tried iron filings to prove to myself there was no magnet in there.

Rick

Thanks Rick! We've added your Irrigation Flow System to our Farm and Garden category, as well as to your builder page: Rick's Homemade Tools. Your receipt:

<div id="blocks"> <div class="block b1 pngfix"> <div class="bimg"> <div> <a href="http://www.homemadetools.net/homemade-irrigation-flow-system"><img src="http://www.homemadetools.net/uploads/208484/homemade-irrigation-flow-system.jpeg"/></a></div> </div> <div class="head pngfix"></div> <div class="left pngfix"></div> <div class="right pngfix"></div> <div class="blockover b1 pngfix"> <div class="title"> <a href="http://www.homemadetools.net/homemade-irrigation-flow-system">Irrigation Flow System</a> <span> by <a href="/builder/Rick+Sparber">Rick Sparber</a></span> </div> <div class="tags">tags: <a href="http://www.homemadetools.net/tag/farm-garden">farm and garden</a>, <a href="http://www.homemadetools.net/tag/electronics">electronics</a></div> </div> </div> </div>