SawStop GIF

[C-Bag]

You of course are totally right PJs. I for the life of me can't figure out why that wasn't my main concern, brain hack? Guess I forgot I drank the Koolaide

I guess I should be glad that you have to take the Volt in to the dealer for software upgrades as that means it's software is not accessible through the satellite link like Tesla. Not thinking about hacking I thought it was kinda cool that Tesla can do upgrades through the satellite link while you sleep. But then I think back to my time in the automotive trenches and shiver. I don't buy anything first gen. Usually, unwittingly the Volt is a Gen II. And that's because I was there when they rolled out the C3/C4 GM computer carburators in the early 80's and bad glitches and poor performance became the nature of the beast excuse by the dealer. And a good portion of my clientele I had to tell them they had to go to the dealer when there was a problem with the black box. It was during that time I decided to quit working on cars and go to packing machinery. Less black boxes and less fixing and more making new along with helping design and manufacture.

I guess I should mention we just went in for 4 software update/recalls and the one that stuck out was a possible software glitch of when the battery runs out there is message "engine not found"..........scary. Knock on wood we've not had any such problem but it is scary how complicated cars have gotten and it's a major reason why we decided for the first time ever to lease instead of buy. One thing I have noticed is there is an option to pick electronic dash configurations. This was reset with the update and now for whatever reason I cannot "select" the enhanced version we usually use. I can page through, but for some reason the select button doesn't select it permanently. Guess I need some more Koolaide.

[PJs]

You pointed out some good things about the various update schemes C-Bag. I'm not sure which is better but they are all based on code jockey work and vulnerable throughout the system. Look what VW/BMW was busted with recently...firmware saying it was a clean machine, worldwide.

Back when rocks were forming I went to C3 school in Freemont...cool stuff I thought and it has all gotten better and much more complex now tying many engine and other subsystems together (brakes, suspension, etc.) mostly in the name of efficiency. However when I was there I got to see several pallet racks in a room that had 50+mpg experimental carbs (mechanical in nature) sitting on the shelves gathering dust...It just never set well with me when I could get 30mpg out of 3 duces on a big block GTO or Mopar.

Now days we have the Racer X kids hacking/modding firmware for street rods, drift cars and such, let alone the big boy racers with telemetry and dynamic feedback systems. All cool stuff but susceptible to human frailty.

When you start tying the fuel system into Variable Valve Timing, idling cylinders one at a time, and electronic advance/retard timing based on load conditions, engine/fluid/exhaust temp with multiple O2/Nox sensors and the almighty GPS with a single black box firmware and microprocessor, even with some redundancy starting to show up, it's all relying on the frailty of still practicing humans, some with natures that shouldn't be appealed to. The more complex the system the more likely a breakdown, maybe even catastrophic, minimally chaotic and expensive, most probably by human frailty.

When I think of the space program and some the stuff Marv got to work on, I see fairly simple well thought out systems with redundancy to safeguard a few people and gather some data. Probably the biggest accomplishment of the 20th century and that was 50 years ago...definitely the Right Stuff and monumental in right thinking, imho. Unfortunately it was underpinned by the presumption of the "Space Race" to dominance and mutually assured destruction. Perhaps if we can see betterment in human kind(ness) and the ecosystem we live in as a way of becoming, instead of "Mo This or That", and mine is bigger than yours we may not meet catastrophe head first.

[mklotz]

With the exception of the "gently steering you back in your lane" feature most of what you describe are more in the nature of warning or viewing enhancement features.

I have no problem at all with viewing/warning features, in fact, I would love to have a side-view and rear-view camera like my daughter's new Honda has.

But, I draw the line at anything that attempts to autonomously operate the car for you. If you can't stay in your lane, you have no damn business driving an automobile. (I rate about half the drivers out there in that category.)

There is simply no way anyone can design fail-soft software that is ready to cope correctly with the infinite number of situations which face drivers on a regular basis. If you're too lazy to actually drive your car, stay home or take a bus/taxi/train/subway...whatever.

If you want to see more on this hot topic, including some really laughable pie-in-the-sky nonsense by the Silicon Valley nutjobs, there's a long thread over at HSM...

OT: Autonomous car progress.

My suggestion is that, if you want to discuss this further, do it there. As far as I'm concerned this ranks up there with politics and religion as subjects unfit for discussion in any hobby forum, most certainly this one.

[C-Bag]

Hey, whatever, I didn't bring it up, you did. And you seem to be the only one who's getting hot about it. Consider it dead, pardon me for replying.

[mklotz]

Hey, whatever, I didn't bring it up, you did. And you seem to be the only one who's getting hot about it. Consider it dead, pardon me for replying.

My apologies, C-bag. That remark wasn't directed at you. And, you're right, I brought it up.

My concern is that a subject like this can get heated and I get enough of that on other fora. I'd like to avoid it here. I regard this place as an island of calm in a sea of discord.

I won't discuss it again.

[C-Bag]

Apology accepted Marv.

I also appreciate the calm and respectful vibe here and don't mean to ruffle any feathers.

[PJs]

Nor shall I.

[Toolmaker51]

Sorry fellas. I was between this starting and concluding, so my jab is going to irritate a portion. So, edited in some novelty to lessen the blow.

It doesn't surprise me that there is more a monetary than true safety angle to it...guy ordering I think a rotary table from Grizzly and they cancelled the order because of the change to a law that says you can't sell brass with lead in here. Needless to say that's caused quite a row and a round of CA bashing.

Have instances occurred where customers are ingesting rotary table components? Don't get me started on lawyers.
Well, as an exCA myself, few get more enjoyment than a former loyalist. Moving here, was asked many times...BUT WHY? Response; going to open a suspender store. A percentage found it plausible.
Personally hate the drive to make things physically 'safe'. Electrical safety and such are one thing. The trend in autos; pedestrian detection; lane departure, auto braking, crash avoidance? What are drivers doing more important than piloting a vehicle, besides maxing out their cell data plan, finishing cosmetics...? I can't wait for the first manufacturer liability suit pursued by defense attorney based on one of those being ineffective.
PJs statement tallies it up. "It is impossible to make anything foolproof, because fools are so ingenious."
Yup, they've got all day too.

[Ropetangler]

I'm not sure that I agree with you blokes. While I hate the idea that my car might one day be uneconomic to repair because the inbuilt intelligence has gone kaput, with the rest of it in good working order, but no new computer system available, the idea that the car of some moron ploughing into me because they were distracted by the show on the DVD player, or were too busy applying makeup, or catching up on twitter etc, when the same moron might have been in a car with adaptive cruise control, or collision avoidance radar is not real flash either. Most morons need all the driving help available, as already stated, they can be so ingenious, and there are lots of them on the roads and highways. The accident statistics are not pretty reading, here in Australia, many more killed on the roads than by murders or unlawful killings, not sure of U.S.figures, but intelligent systems are worth thinking about in my view.

[Jon]

Bandsaw "BladeStop":

What's ironic here is the use of gloves, which of course are generally counterindicated when sawing. In this case, the saw blade stops when it touches the glove.

Patent: Patent EP1909588A1 - Electric saw with operator protection system - Google Patents