Shop Truths, Phrases, Tales; and Outright Lies

[C-Bag]

That is a lot of flexibility in your approach. No wind?

I'm lucky in that I don't need a/c here which contributed 80% of our power bill when living the San Joaquin Valley. I'm also watching what happens to the price of home battery packs when Tesla gets the Giga factory online in NV. Being able to charge the pack at night along with running off solar during the day would be the way to go here as our usage is so low. We live in a old small development so I don't think wind would be feasible because the logistics of such a tall tower with not much land to play with. Even though the wind blows most of the time.

It is about time the tech that should have been available since the 70's is finally widely available. Meanwhile there is a ton of newer tech that is still languishing.

[Frank S]

C-bag out where we are or I should say within 45 to 60 miles as the crow fly's there are at least 3 reasonably large wind farms. I haven't set up to do a data log of the average wind but just 12 miles from me there are at least 3 underground weather-stations online they are located in an almost perfect triangle to each other with our place located near the center of 1 of the legs This gives me a pretty good estimation of high low and average wind through out the year. When it comes to wind turbines I have spent years conversing with several folks on another forum. While in kuwait I designed several home brew axial and radial flux generators and built a very small scale model but never flew it.
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I am of several thoughts when it comes to home brew wind or small commercially available turbines the $$ cost averaging simply won't pay out. You can build a nice 1 to 3 KW axial flux or even a nice radial generator with ceramic magnets for little to nothing in cost providing you are a good scrounge and know where to scarf your magnets and copper in the scrap yards. Up grading to NEO. magnets will set your back some bucks but you can build a more durable and flex-able genny. Where the cost comes in is in an suitable tower and its anchorage You can erect a hobby tower as I call them which is nothing more than a single pipe using guy wires to secure it in place but those to me are pretenders. Most folks who decide to get into wind do not have my skill set so they would have to buy their engineered towers, such as a Rohn will set you back The Rohn guyed towers are a favorite among the Ham radio folks but Rohn engineers all types of towers both guyed and free standing Next comes the anchorage.
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Far too many home turbines have failed and caused extensive damage and sometimes even deaths from improper anchoring guys have been pulled from the ground towers have folded and so on
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Even a well engineered freestanding tower if there are not tons of concrete with deep roots to support the base one day there will be a freak 90 MPH micro burst of a gust that will bring it to the ground.
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Some engineers in fact mistakenly believe that a base designed for a 120 ft tower meant to support a set of 10 highway lights will support a wind turbine tower of only 60 ft with a 21 ft diameter turbine set and generator nacel for ever. WRONG WRONG WRONG Lobbing off the upper 60 ft of tower and using the bottom section may be plenty strong for the generator and turbine. However the forces against the turbine even if the blades are at "0" pitch of the turbine is rotated to full stall can be tremendous because wind is un-predictable at best, it can change directions by 1 to 180 ° in an instant leaving the full cord area of the blades facing the wind.
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I used to do some marine engineering for break waters and sea walls so in large part I associate wind engineering with marine and I have studied the effects of wind on both low and high structures. I would be comfortable in designing my own tower footing but would not ever place my stamp if I still had one on someone else's I'll leave that to the PE's with civil and structural degrees on their walls.
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Now for the short answer to your question about wind Yes I do have plans on wind but time and $$$ will make any design or build somewhere in the future.
As far as flexibility in my approach I am supposed to have 2 industrial UPS units coming to me which were used by a large international financial investments firm. When they arrive sometime next month I hope to be able to finalize my system design
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I have several industrial controls panels and switch gear to chose from when I start building my shop so some of this may even find its way into the electrical needs of it.

[C-Bag]

Thanks for the info Frank. It's what I've always suspected but you can't always get the details about things like this without digging for a long time. When I read on one site that a minimum tower should be at least 100' around here I knew the logistics were not going to work. Not enough room even for a 20', much less 60 or 100'. It sounds like you have plenty of room around you and can do pretty much as you please

As with any big leap no matter how I try to research it there's always surprises. In the mail today we received our first whole months bill since getting the net billing started with PG&E, $9,(that's the min bill) WoooHooooo! But also got two notices from the county, one on the install of the EV charge station, and one on the solar panels. It seems they need to re assess for property taxes, boooooo. Didn't see that one coming.

Meanwhile nobody is making PG&E accountable for how they don't sell you back the power you put in the grid at the same rate and they just zero you out at your anniversary of install, as long as you don't owe them. It doesn't pay to put out more than you use here. I understand this is not the case in other states.

[PJs]

Frank, I like your distribution ideas for your place and agree about tower building by a PE or a person like yourself with decades of that kind of experience, not just putting a pole up with guy wires with a hope and prayer. Personally I favor VAWT over axial at this point whether a traditional V or horizontal mainly because of the lateral wind loads and stall issues on a 60'-100' tower, let alone the tip velocity issue. They also have the advantage for directionality. The real conundrum is whether we spin fast or slow or somewhere in between. It's a heck of a spun mass at 21' diameter either way and can become quite a hand grenade if direct coupled or through clutch brake system if mother nature sneezes and things go awry. At 60' the air stream is a bit steadier typically and at 100' it's better but can be more violent for whatever you are spinning. VAWT's by design typically spin more easily with less wind and can be operated on a roof top or small platform but it still comes down to the conundrum and coupling of whatever generator system is used. There are a lot of innovative foil/vane technologies out there now but can see some improvement still, imho. Also the wind data is becoming more and more available and feel you are graced with a 3 station triangle for your area...hopefully you can get the data easily when you are ready.

As for generation, I love the idea of Re-Up-Cycling and scrounge because I resemble that. The Axial flux is a cheep and cheerful way to go for what ever system it's tied to. However, probably 25 years ago I read in NASA Tech Briefs (back page with the new patents) that Motorola had patented a new rotor system (First since Tesla) that increased the output of an alternator by 3X which meant the typical car alternator could go from 30A to 100A with only a marginal increase (<5%) in load. Back in the early 80's I had already converted a GM alternator to 3phase ~120V out depending on RPM. There are a ton of builders/companies out there selling them now with the newer designed rotors, at a price of course...but how many have thought of or tried tying a PV or peltier to it to drive the stator?...me...works and only a small battery to start it and only ~30-100ma to keep it going depending on load. Neodymium magnets are pricey because of the resources/equipment that it takes to produce them. They are coming down because of the economy of scale though. To me some of the issues with Axial flux are the ratcheting and losses from that, the coupling system and heat losses will limit output to somewhere around the 1-3kw level as you indicated, but for a home DIY system on the cheep and cheerful add-on for E-power a good start. My other thought is the conundrum of AC/DC efficiency. With an AC 3ph VAWT one could place it probably up to a hundred yards or more from distribution controls with off the shelf or up-cycled materials maybe even 3 circuits of 12Ga might give you up to ~50A without too much loss, definitely less than 2-4/O CU at that distance for DC? Once you add a bridge and load resistors things go down hill fast, which leads to the rest of the AC/DC equation for the house and shop equipment/appliances with distribution.

One thing about your situation and others jumping in C-Bag, is that self feeding engine we live in. It's great you got a $9 PGE bill even with the hidden additional costs magically showing up. Yes the ROI gets extended a bit but the fact that you jumped in both feet in something you are passionate about is not easily measured in ROI, but a whale of a add to the cause. As Paul said the other day it's about your pursuit of happiness and doing the right thing for yourself in that pursuit. We can't always change nor control those who figure out how to keep it in their favor, but its a good start (imho) in the right direction and momentum/inertia and may/will hopefully lead us out of the dark ages of forethought and back-rubbing. Government/corporate coddling has gone on since Plato, maybe longer, so maybe it can't be changed...but maybe it can...just wish it would hurry up before my small time here ends and I get to see it....or make something to help it.

As for Grid Tie I'm not very much on board with it, but until battery/storage tech is a bit better their are some benefits. It all takes time & duckets to ferret out...no magic 8 ball or wand, just a vision to work towards.

Not sure if this was "Out of the Box" or an old coot pondering the possible but have been studying this stuff a long time...by and by winding the watch of my wit...perhaps it will strike soon.

~PJ

[Frank S]

MeJasonT, welcome to the thread of eclecticism. New blood or meat for the grinder is always highly sought after when forum threads like this one for some reason just will hot die off.
When it comes to "the box" I prefer a sphere or the very least an omni dimensional sprial helix where there can be no inside or outside TO fully visualize my thoughts one must think in more planes than are thought to exist
http://laughingsquid.com/wp-content/...ng-2ssssss.gif
In my mind there are no actual insides or outsides I once reverse engineered a very popular at the time piece of oilfield equipment only to come up with a unit which cost less than 1/4 to produce was less than half the weight and twice as efficient with at least as good (some said) even better durability. The thing was even compatible with off the shelf internal consumables
The thing was I managed to build the thing in my back yard nearly 25 years before I had any degree in anything, Before that 3 or 4 of us designed and built an entire 5000 ft drill depth capacity rig for less than the cost of just a draw-works on a conventional drill rig at the time, and we did it in a small 2000 sf shop sitting on less than half an acre.
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Big corporate engineering think tanks Ha, Ha, Ha. Our rig along with all of its equipment could be transported set up and drilling to full depth requiring only 4 persons for the entire operation.
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PJs There is nothing wrong with using PV for excitation instead of magnets. When using a wound rotor instead of one with magnets to create a magnetic field Just like you back in the 80s I dabbled briefly with modifying automotive alternators top get 3 ph I once took a Chrysler alt with 36 coils and a small fractional Hp 3 ph motor then pulled out all of the coil leads and rew connected them to make a 9 ph motor and generator directly coupled to each other, first I powered the alt with a lawnmower engine then I tried it with a wind fan not a 3 bladed turbine, the engine the thing work but I never could get enough speed out of the windmill due to low height and fickle winds to get much out if it in gusts if around 20 MPH with a 5 inch grinding wheel I could sharpen a lawnmower blade but less than that it would stall out. It wasn't until just a few years ago while searching the net that I learned of anyone else using more than 3 ph to try and produce electricity.
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Another thing that a lot of people don't know about car alternators is since they operate in an extremely harsh environment having to deal wiht the under the hood temperatures and engine RPM's ranging from 700 to nearly 8000 on some vehicles they have to be designed to run at or near the bottom of the efficiency range if they are expected to last for 100's of 1000's miles.
By changing the design of the claws on the rotor can boost their output like you mentioned several times also if you induce high enough voltage to achieve magnetic field saturation of the rotor you can produce much higher amperage's Higher voltages + higher amperage = more heat which must be dissipated in some way adding fins and a larger fan can help or incorporating refrigeration coils. Encasing one in a sealed container and circulating dielectric oil would be another way to remove the heat of an extreme high output alt. design.

[C-Bag]

Shop Truths, Phrases, Tales, And Outright Lies kinda says it all for me.

The Truth for me is the division that happens when a company gets big enough to have workers and managers.

The Phrases reflect that. Time is money. Why is there always time to do it over but never to do it right the first time. Workers see incompetence and waste at the top as the bane of their existence and management see sloth and lack of diligence at the bottom as the bane of their existence. Teamwork is the supposed goal where there is no real team, just them and us.

Tales of trying to succeed when the cards and the system in place seem to be all about thwarting efficiency, and pride of a job well done.

And the tide of Outright Lies that the real corporate think tanks continue to weave into our perceived reality. The American worker is not competitive because they are overpaid and lazy. Unions are bad, free(trade)markets are gospel. Out sourcing is the logical progression because of the preceding. Corporations are people and benevolent and will self regulate. Laws, taxes and regulations for corporations are bad, but the masses need more laws, taxes, enforcement and incarceration. Privatization of government is more efficient because the government should be run like a business because business leaders are so virtuous and smart.

HMT is where I see refugees like myself,observe, thinking of, make, and using, to think, make and use and on and on. Something I was not able to do as a wage slave.

I got your self evident truth hangin'!

[Toolmaker51]

Shop Truths, Phrases, Tales, And Outright Lies kinda says it all for me.

Aaarggh matey; tis' same fer all a' us I be a-wagerin'.

I'll relate the 'excitement?' when emails pop regarding edits or posts to Shop Truths, Phrases, Tales, And Outright Lies. STPTaOL.
Creating a minor sensation is rewarding.
I appreciate more than ever how much there is to learn; ie posts on solar/ alt power recently --Waaay above my noggin.
There is NO substitute for free thought.
STPTaOL proves ability to envision, conceive, create and deliver, functions by means of all the senses.
Some apologize for hi-jacks. Why? Still free thought too, maybe even more so because it is reaction instead of response.
And bonding is not dependent on physical interaction.

C-Bags observations; Oh! To forward those to powers that be.
We've conversed on plight of US worker; and ill-placed perceptions hung on them. Funny, back when persons rose more naturally into their position, far less a percentage condoned that even exist.
For years now, haven't been able to shake notion the break-off occurred after Deming went to Asia and won an entire generation over with a few hundred pages of well observed theory. Suddenly 'we' are interns, amateurs, novices, devoid of seniority, credence, or value.
But 'I' (not me) have a degree, a title, and a parking spot; with little experience beyond couple reams worth of term papers.
If you can fool a professor = easier to fool HR!

Next resume package has what amount to essay responses; on leadership. Surprising little on credentials. To whit:
In closing, the basis of leadership skills has only a partially natural facet. The larger portion, and more considerable factor is in those to be lead. Neither one alleviate burden on or empower a leader; only signal how engagement may be attained. Subordination is often interpreted as subjugation, and becomes micromanagement. Genuine, respected leaders are often at ease, especially when they present themselves authentically to subordinates as ‘one of their own’; instead of by uniform, title, parking spot or other artifice.
Respectfully,
TM51

[Toolmaker51]

As promised. While not homemade, it was a facility doing one-off work. And one-off done correctly; based on experience, resources, and infinite restraints, demonstrates a high level of accomplishment.
3rd. Niles Heavy Duty Planer Mill. Combines single point [or form tools] tooling on one ram and conventional 50 NM taper milling, 15-480 rpm on second ram, both mounted on cross rail, and 2 side heads attached at either column. The table measurements; 15' wide x 36' long, with 14' under the rail! A planer should reach 100% of it's table real estate; meaning the footprint was occupied by not less than 72' of guideways. Compared to a lathe, in far less weight per square foot, all large machine tools require concrete foundations for stability, leveling, and vibration isolation. With full length ways a planer isn't very susceptible to it inbound. Weight transfer of a reciprocating iron chunk 15' x 36' at least 3' thick outbound affects machines nearby.
Accurate DeVlieg 4'' spindle horizontal mill is supposed to bed on 4' depth concrete, rebar and solid compacted earth. [wait for it]
The Niles was around 1000' feet from Long Beach, CA shoreline and likely saltwater pools below. Reportedly she bed on 30' feet concrete. At 4000 lbs cu3, its 7.2 million lbs of counterweight. Designers [then retired] of foundation were thrilled SoCal earthquake history did not unsettle the bed. Even though leveling was initially theodolite and reflex optics, when lasers came in, millwrights still found no need for critical adjustments.
I have a photo would love to post but scanning pixelates it horribly. I'll find other means.

[C-Bag]

This all staggers the imagination. I don't think one picture is going to be able to convey everything. It's hard enough to do it with our small offerings much less something of this scope. This and Frank's Van Norman truck/bus brake lathe can only be encompassed by imagination or direct observation probably. What did they DO on this Niles Heavy Duty Planer Mill? And please, no "anything they wanted". Any pics of things made on it? And something so massive it threw machines around it off? Did it throw gravity waves instead of swarf? So it had to be electronically controlled.....what time frame are we talking about here? Was it punch cards or? Did they make tank chassis out of billets of steel? Inquiring minds want to know!

[Paul Jones]

ToolMaker51 and C-Bag,

I had to use the Google search for images to see what a Niles Heavy Duty Planer Mill looked like and wow are these massive. No wonder these need a very heavy concrete pad. Like C-Bag said, what did they machine on these lathes?

I have had limited exposure to large machine tools. My friend whose company makes very large capacity water pumps (some are 200,000 gallons per minute) installed a 72" swing Fanuc CNC vertical lathe with 48 tool selection and a secondary axis with another 24 tool selection. The machine arrive on four 18 wheelers and the largest machine section weighed 20,000 lbs. It has a lot of refrigeration gear to keep the machine at a constant temperature to maintain tolerances. When machining it has two large chip conveyor belts to carry away the massive amount of chips it produces. I know they poured a special floor to support the machine and built a safety interlock so the 25 ton overhead gantry cranes wouldn't crash into the top of the Fanuc when fully extended. This is the same shop that has a MacIntosh-Hemphill lathe (they raised the headstock, cross slide and tailstock for larger swing) originally used to machine the 16" guns for WWII battleships. I have to visit the MacIntosh-Hemphill lathe every time I tour their shop because it is a machine that you just don't see in most shops. Who needs stairs to operate their tailstocks?