Shop Truths, Phrases, Tales; and Outright Lies

[Frank S]

Paul I would hope that you are making rows of Hugelkulturs out of those chips

I would steer away from a roof mounted system at all costs if possible, unless the house was specifically constructed for solar PV
now solar heating or water heating can be another story as well My main problems with roof mounted systems are three fold #1 the additional weight #2 the added possibility for fire, #3 accessibility for servicing. No matter which type of Solar energy harvesting a person is contemplating there will always be a need to service the system. Even it is nothing more than a periodical washing

[Paul Jones]

Frank S,

I like the Hugelkulturs idea except for the problem with wildfires. I usually cut a small flat plaform back into the slope for the chipper to safely sit and then leave it there for a couple months while chipping brush and limbs before relocating another forty feet away for the next round of chipping. This creates a 15'x15' mounds of chips that I spread to about 6" thick. Nothing grows there because the decomposing chips seem to rob the soil of nitrogen. The big problem I had with the wildfire was the darn chip piles eventually caught on fire like a duff fire despite being water soaked with the hoses. The chip piles smoldered for several days and finally stopped burning. I didn't know how bad this had gotten until I checked the soles of my boots and found I burned the soles.

Agree about not putting anymore weight on the roof than necessary. Our roof structure was designed for the weight of a slate roof but we decided to put light weight concrete tiles on the roof. It is a 10,000 SF complex roof with plywood under double and triple layers of felt and very waterproof for the two or three times a year when we get 6" of rain. Even though the we use light weight concrete tiles, the totally weight of tiles, felt, copper flashing and plywood amounts to 44 tons. I think about this a lot when it is windy so I would be worrying even more if we had solar panels and the typical 50 MPH Santa Anna winds.

Thank you for your comments, Paul

[Frank S]

Paul the hugelkulturs obviously function better in a wetter environment such as that found in the Pacific Northwest.
However one way to cause them to kick-start into decay in more arid locations is to trench down a couple feet in long trenches adding a new trench when needed about 5 to 6 feet from the previous. Fill the trench to within 5 or 6 inches of the surface with a mixture of as much very green foliage as possible half and half has worked for several I had helped in the middle east to cause the nearly barren hard pan then mound the removed soil over the trench. This helps to prevent the moisture from evaporating.
If at all possible the area should receive some irrigation from time to time and serves more as a trench compost system than strictly a hugelkultur but it also offers some protection against wildfire

[Paul Jones]

Frank S,
Excellent advice from your experience in the Middle East and will work well in the Mediterranean-like climate we have in the parts of Southern California. We also need more organically enriched soils. I used to live in the Pacific Northwest on Bainbridge Island, across from Seattle, and water and enriching the soils was not a problem. The azaleas, rhododendrons and hydrangeas grew beautifully with minimal care except for occasional fertilizing and deadheading. The clay-like non-acidic soils in Southern California has to be organically enriched to grow these plants well (the plants grow well until their roots extend beyond enriched root ball). The hugelkulturs could be that source of enriched soils and other than the initial trenching, should almost take care of themselves with a little extra water and harder to burn.

Thank you for the ideas, Paul

Okay, now where where we on the alternative energy track before I got everyone distracted?

[Frank S]

Paul, the term alt energy can mean many things. Many mistakenly tend to think it simply means producing electricity by means other than the accepted norm But just what is the accepted norm in today's world.
To me energy means many things and has many forms.
The means of creating activity the physical or mental strength that allows you to do things to start with.
Then which form of energy should we talk about? Kinetic, chemical, potential,mechanical, light, heat, magnetic, atomic, to name a few. then what about so called renewable or non renewable.
The only truly non renewable form of energy is that which has been wasted.
I am perfectly willing to make an attempt at a coherent conversation in any direction dealing with what some may call alt energy so far as my limited knowledge and experiences allow as long as over unity does not enter into the equation
Most of the builders here on HMT knowingly or unknowingly practice the law of conservation of energy by building their own tools,
These tools such as the current tool of the week the http://www.homemadetools.net/forum/d...function-50776
Is in my estimation a good example of the law of conservation of energy + the use of intellectual energy
the use of intellectual energy is self explanatory but the conservation of energy is not as apparent in the normal use of the term, because the definition is tied to the first law of thermal dynamics,a law governing the relations between states of energy in a closed system

However when in use it saves the user time and effort which to me at least is conserving energy. The device was constructed to accommodate existing components which has conserved the amount of energy which would have been required to manufacture them, thus energy is disappearing in one form and reappearing in another
OK some may feel that I posses a warped opinion of the forms and terms communally used when it comes to energy maybe I have but they are my opinions
Now I believe this thread was about shop truths phrases and outright lies. Possibly it should have included experiences in the topic as well since many of us have shared several of our own real life experiences.
Maybe it is time for us to explore some of those outright lies. LOL.


Full Definition of energy
plural energies
1
a : dynamic quality <narrative energy>
b : the capacity of acting or being active <intellectual energy>
c : a usually positive spiritual force <the energy flowing through all people>
2
: vigorous exertion of power : effort <investing time and energy>
3
: a fundamental entity of nature that is transferred between parts of a system in the production of physical change within the system and usually regarded as the capacity for doing work
4
: usable power (as heat or electricity); also : the resources for producing such power

[C-Bag]

Very interesting tie in Frank S. Because one of the "truths" always being thrown around any shop is "time is $$" and in my experience the managers don't think anything is getting done unless those on the floor are rushing around expending energy like chickens w/their heads cut off. The few masters I got to work around were the epitome of economy of motion and by extension, energy. They never rushed, they never did it over. They wouldn't start until they had a clear plan of what they were going to do. And they were always done before the whirling dervishes. Especially when you started tracking their comebacks. Their time truly was directly converted to work/$$.

I also enjoy seeing where time, $$ and energy is saved here on HMT using what is at hand or might be a tossed by others, converted into something useful. The hugelkultures are a good example. Instead of being carted off and dumped it's used directly.

The first time I ever heard of such a thing is in Paul Stametts book Mycelium Running. For those who don't know him he's the mushroom King. He describes where he was living in WA was a very old homestead like most of the places around him. And like most around him they had an old barrel in the ground for a septic tank with a very poor leech field. Everything sloped and went over a cliff into the bay. He has farm animals too, so everything was going over the side. There was a long depression that everything kind of ran to so he put all his wood chips in layers with cardboard layers to keep them damp in the building a dam so all the run off had to go through. He also told the phone and power co they could dump their wood chips from trimming in there too. Each layer of cardboard and chips he inoculated with garden giant mushrooms.

They started having probs with the clam beds in the bay having bacteria related to effluent and started going around checking on all the farms runoff. After checking his they found no trace of bacteria. The mycelium filtered the bacteria and ate it producing clean water going into the bay. It typically lasts 10yrs, and you dig it up and it's the best soil you can imagine. Then just repeat the process.

That book is chock full of amazing things like that. Another was the state transportation yard put out a bid to try to find an alternative to scraping the yard clean of the oil that dripped off the vehicles and send it to a hazardous waste dump. They wanted an onsite remediation process. There were three respondents, Stammets being one. The state prepared 4 piles of oily dirt/gravel. There test piles and one control. They each applied their process. Stammets used wood chips inoculated with oyster mushrooms. He didn't see what the other outfits used. All 4 piles were covered with tarps and they returned 6wks later. When they uncovered the piles the control and the other two piles looked the same, but Stammets pile was covered with oyster mushrooms. The tested the soil and the oil was completely gone. The mushrooms had done what they do, disassembled the long molecuclar chains of the oil. He also makes the rolls you see put in storm drains here as they are inoculated with the same mycelium to filter the oil that come off the roadway during a rain and keep it out of Morro Bay fisheries. I've read where there has been success composting chipped plastic the same way with wood chips, oyster mycelium and chipped plastic.

[PJs]

Once again Frank you picked up on 2 words of one of my dissertations (hijacks) and pretty much covered the bases ± a skosh. I've pretty much followed the "Systems" approach since reading Capra's "The Turning Point" back in the mid 80's, but only because I read the Kybalion back when I was 16 and got it...and been an initiate ever since. We do as a whole species like to put names to a local habitation but often miss the multidimensionality of all the Bard brought forward for us to ponder, imho. My intent is usually geared toward that way of communicating and you picked it up and ran with it, here on this great forum of Alt Thinkers/Doers. Plus I get tired sometimes of having to explain it, like writing a resume.

You're absolutely right PV is a small subset of the spectrum of physics and the meaning of the term Alt Energy, but it is nice that now after 40 years California is producing about 15% via PV @ <40% efficiency. Then we have the wind farms with another 8-10% and of course Geothermal even smaller. The reason is that electricity has become like our eyes as one of the senses we most depend on. Next fossil fuels has become like a food we consume to be healthy and not only generate electricity but to fuel our travel, ever shrinking the time we have between destinations...at what efficiency? That is except for airports, if only we could bottle that waste of energy, Oh my! Our grid system is now ~120 years old and still using tech from the turn of the 20th century, but now using 750KV-1MV lines to bring Power to masses, but mainly industry...guess what...it's tired and vulnerable.

We've got a lot of new names like Green and Carbon Footprint that do impart some multidimensionality and by some goodness do imply efficiency in a systems view. Unfortunately it's also become a marketing ploy steering the masses for better or worse. Hybrids for instance are an excellent start at a systems approach but what is the difference between those and the 100mpg carb/fuel systems that have been sitting on the shelves at GM and others for years...I'll leave that for you to answer, but it's not just a 14:1 air/fuel ratio under load. How easily is a bush supposed a bear...or vice versa.

I've been looking at, researching the old and new/cutting edge of this stuff since the 60's and a turning point of mine came to mind here. Back in college I used to fill the tank on my TR3 and drive out into the Superstition's till I got to 1/2 tank pull over and sit on the edge (sometimes throw out a bag and spend the night) and look at the wonder of them and the native dwellings in the side of the walls and it dawned on me the life these people lived in these efficient dwellings using economy of energy to live their simple lives without Starbucks and Whataburger. It couldn't have been easy yet it was simple and efficient and probably a bit magical, definitely connected & spiritual. It comes down to me this idea of this (non) economy of scale we hold so dearly to after being primarily a nomad bunch for a 100k years prior to the masses collecting, larger and larger till we have 15-20M people living in 30 square miles all over the planet. It's now a matter of logistics & Duckets to feed, clothe, shelter, and power that many in that small of place...the roads must roll...

More to the point here and to minimize my hijack, what if we started considering combining technologies, say to capturing heat loss for other purposes or took a look at using some of the other forms of energy from the spectrum and nature, exothermic/chemical (like the hugelkulturs or mushrooms), etc. What if we used them together in a larger system to manage Single Family Residences needs for food/water, shelter, heat, electricity...basic needs+, so we could use our new i-Toys (also hopefully Alt designed, maybe even from recycled materials) thereby relieving the OA system to individual sensibilities/responsibilities (semi-scary thought)? My thought are Entropy is, why not use that. The tech is here now to make the whole exterior of your house produce electricity, maybe not efficiently but if we might take a look at thinking out of the box and changing the Paradigm with a longer more dynamic view of entropy, resources, wherewithal, and conscious broad spectrum thinking "we might just find we get what we need".

Whelp you guys wound the watch of my wit and it ticked at least a second or two. In consideration that we really haven't told any outright lies, perhaps food for thought and maybe the shop truth of it is, it's all lies and a beautiful tall tale.

Thanks for being here sharing the tale. ~PJ

[Frank S]

Yep the old time is $$ LIE. Ever wonder why there is never enough time to do something right the first time but always plenty of money to do it over when that thing catastrophically fails?
This reminds me of a 20 meter 10 tone bridge crane beam I designed and subsequently had built in our factory in Kuwait.for a new client of ours. Who just happened to be one of those dollar cost averaging spread sheet time chart graph driven BEAN counter types. According to his so called chart we should start our manufacture on a certain date in order for the expected delivery and install to be on yet another pin point on his graph. There for he felt that his prepayment or deposit if you will should not be before the date he had on his chart.
Absolutely no conception of the probability that the special materials IE type of steel required to build this crane might not be a local purchase, which could require as much as 3 months to arrive by ship. When my salesman a young mechanical engineer tried to explain to him the reason that his cash deposit along with a LC for the full cost would have to be placed in our bank at the onset of his project and not 3 months down the line according to the pinpoint on his chart indicated. He hit the proverbial roof by passing the ceiling altogether.
My engineers tell me that you don't need to use any special steel for one of these. I personally have seen many beams similar to this made out of common locally available steel Just build it our of the regular stuff.
Sir I really don't advise you to insist on our company build something that my SIR has spent time designing out of inferior materials. in the first place he won't allow it. In the second place he is a voting member of the Kuwait Society of Engineers I shouldn't have to say more.
Very well your company will get your money on your time schedule But I still don't see why he won't use regular steel.
Quite simply because in his estimation your structure will not safely support the additional weight the bridge crane would weigh and still be capable of hoisting 10,000 KG then transporting the load the length of your building. He believes in do it once but do it right never mind the time or cost, the only thing that anyone will remember in years to come is the quality and functionality.
=-=-=-=-=-
Now then in the previous discourse there are many complete truths a few half truths, a phrase or two and at least one possibly more outright lies. I used to have a couple of colleagues who would attempt to create a 100% believable real life scenario when addressing a group of peers and subordinates. I find that these little diversions from reality often stimulate conversations among persons who actually know each other very well. Where they can create of destroy a line of thought at will. However in an atmosphere where the conversations are carried on by individuals who either don't know one another or have a limited history with each other can and will create a false impression of each other.
the outright lie was the word VOTING the 2nd outright lie was the reluctance to pay the deposit.
the half truths were the conversation between the salesman and the client about the use of regular steel the structural integrity of the building being built,
=-=-=-=-
Lets jump to constructing a building which would actually produce its own electrical, heat or cooling, air and water purification and throw in produce edible food stuffs. Start off with thinking a massive amount thermal mass toss, in bio-electromagnetism bio-luminescence, integrate vertical and horizontal hydro and aquaponics solar PV solar air and water heating with a twin bore hole geothermal well. When all of these are added together in a structure most likely made primarily out of COB you could achieve a near 100% self sustaining habitat

[Toolmaker51]

I am stunned.

Imagine this.
Some where, some how, some day, some one finds this entire thread and a little light pops on.
"Who are these guys? Where are they now?"
"They were right!"

By then, it will either be too late or have finally been set right.
Never the less, the Al Gore Honorary Foundation will take credit.



And the crystal ball we've created worked again. I've been eliminated in precisely the same methodical (and manipulated) analysis of dollars & ROI Frank diagrammed above. Cost of Quality should be less than 2% of sales. When asked what percentage was acceptable for your sales staff that can't keep a shop busy...classic blank stare.

Priceless!

Press Room Supervisor and Operations Manager physically helped me load up; insisted I take their personal cell numbers, offered exemplary references, sincere Thank Yous and firm handshakes all round.

Meanwhile quality Manager (yes, intentional use of lower case and caps, aka dufus 2) stood by. His lame attempt to assist received a stern refusal and leave MY s_ _t alone. He did take notes on how to eradicate shadow of former Inspector...Extending his hand for the shake, I 'slicked back' my hair [where it used to be anyway] channeling W. Zevon, saying "Even a Dog can Shake Hands" (dufus 2 unaware of quote punctuation marks).

Priceless! Warren Buffett grade.

[PJs]

I am stunned.

Imagine this.
Some where, some how, some day, some one finds this entire thread and a little light pops on.
"Who are these guys? Where are they now?"
"They were right!"

By then, it will either be too late or have finally been set right.
Never the less, the Al Gore Honorary Foundation will take credit.

And the crystal ball we've created worked again. I've been eliminated in precisely the same methodical (and manipulated) analysis of dollars & ROI Frank diagrammed above. Cost of Quality should be less than 2% of sales. When asked what percentage was acceptable for your sales staff that can't keep a shop busy...classic blank stare.

Priceless!

Press Room Supervisor and Operations Manager physically helped me load up; insisted I take their personal cell numbers, offered exemplary references, sincere Thank Yous and firm handshakes all round.

Meanwhile quality Manager (yes, intentional use of lower case and caps, aka dufus 2) stood by. His lame attempt to assist received a stern refusal and leave MY s_ _t alone. He did take notes on how to eradicate shadow of former Inspector...Extending his hand for the shake, I 'slicked back' my hair [where it used to be anyway] channeling W. Zevon, saying "Even a Dog can Shake Hands" (dufus 2 unaware of quote punctuation marks).

Priceless! Warren Buffett grade.

Al Gore bronze metal...think I saw that once. It was a relief that looked something like this.

Attachment 13694

Amen to your pertinent question about the sales staff! The answer may have been...But they itemized their golf expenses wooing clients which fits the bean counter criteria...question 2 is did they get the sale or just a tan and some drinks? [File: Shop Truths]

Nice touch with the slick back and Zevon...Priceless!

C-Bag touched on all this with Edwards Deming (circular reference #24) regarding statistics to include:

1. Appreciating a system (wow what a thought, eh?)
2. Understanding variation
3. Psychology (oh no)
4. Epistemology (most important)

Unfortunately it has all been corrupted since with variations and more psychobabble than there are sticks to shake at it and reduced to number stacking to fit the criteria which is an [Outright Lie] in my book...becoming a CUBAR (Corrupted....). Where is Democritus now? He was Right!...but dead now 2300 years...{circular file, one of my hero's}

Frank; Cob is great stuff but I'm partial to Post and Beam. Luckily they can be mixed, and with old and new tech. Most people aren't aware that you can also sink 2 rods 30' into the ground to produce E...not much but it's free with scraps. Also not mentioned here is the advances in thermal mass storage systems...pretty cool new stuff.

C-Bag; Apologies for only giving you an honorable mention on the mycelium thing but found a couple of years ago now, the Dairy guys are using that and methane recovery systems around here...very impressive and pretty much DIY.

Paul; This is a cul-de-sac and all a circular reference (unconditional loop). Still diving on the 3D seismic reflection seismology stuff and do like the Tech of it...also solved the Dot Products mystery, Doh! A more precise term perhaps than Scalar products that I learned, forgot and barely used over the years. Also enthused about longitudinal wave theory.

Not sure whether to or do some diving but it's all a big candle to me...Truth, Tale, or Outright Lie? Probably should get something done. Happy Sunday!

~PJ