Vintage work crew photos

[Frank S]

If

If it were to be done over again distributed generation of electricity and storage of electricity would be the go to method. Mandating that every house have solar panels on their roofs and localized batteries of either electrochemical or other means is a way to make this kind of idea work.

Here's one I think is brilliant:

https://eteq.com/worlds-first-carbon...pens-in-italy/

They are doing a megawatt scale plant now to. Nothing in this system is cutting edge. Only it's assemblage. Engineering like this is a way to bridge the gap in Solar and in Wind. And scaled down to a few house lots maybe 6 in size (guessing here) you have 24/7 electricity. And many more people to have jobs in maintenance. Remember maintenance? Almost a four letter word now.

I remember correctly Texas has one of the whimpiest transmission line systems in the USA. No argument there. Texas is basically on it's own grid system and shares very little with other states the exception being the neighboring states. Ercop dropped the ball last winter due to the high reliance on wind and solar, for each megawatt of wind or solar there is supposed to be an equally sized Natural gas generator as back up or standby. Natural gas generators are the only thing that can be powered up and brought online on demand. due to the nationwide scamdemic many natural gas intensifying stations were left short staffed or in many cases taken off line completely, the high demand for gas to heat homes and run other things reduced the quanity and pressures required to run the generators,many of the generators were not even maintained to be brought online at all so there was power outages. This summer we are in an 11 to 12 year heat cycle causing much higher than normal electrical power requirements. so once again many areas are experiencing some outages, Nothing like California sees frequently but when it the temps. are in the triple digits any your power goes out you get uncomfortable really fast. Most of the outages seem to happen in the larger cities where their grid system is even more over stressed.

Mandating that every house have solar panels on their roofs and localized batteries of either electrochemical or other means is a way to make this kind of idea work. Would be one good way however the word MANDATE would have to be changed to offering an equitable incentive otherwise once I had enough solar/ wind and storage to meet 125% of my needs I'd take an ax to the grid lines and they know I would not be alone in doing so.

[mwmkravchenko]

Would be one good way however the word MANDATE would have to be changed to offering an equitable incentive otherwise once I had enough solar/ wind and storage to meet 125% of my needs I'd take an ax to the grid lines and they know I would not be alone in doing so.

Yeah. Only poor word use is my fault really, and people getting all riled up over being told what to do. The simple facts of life are that we are all told what to do. And it's generally for our good, and other peoples good. Freedom of choice stops where our freedoms impinge on other peoples freedoms. And the deeper we analyze that simple principle the less "freedom" we really have. The one part of freedom that amuses me the most is our freedom to accept the consequences of poor choices. I agree that incentives are required for any large group of people to make significant changes. That would be a given fact in regards to the initial cost of this kind of idea. For me the interesting thing is that pretty much only government has the ability to fund something like this as there is to little payback for pretty much any company. And it would effectively put the nails in the coffins of most if not all major utility providers. Residential neighborhoods would be self sufficient. Only industrial users of electricity would need to have peaker plants to keep up with demand. Or much better renewable and storage of some truly large scale capacity.

We can dream. But I think there's to much money and profit tied up in the present system worldwide to change without there being a truly ground shifting thing like what should be done.

[schuylergrace]

Ercop dropped the ball last winter due to the high reliance on wind and solar, for each megawatt of wind or solar there is supposed to be an equally sized Natural gas generator as back up or standby. Natural gas generators are the only thing that can be powered up and brought online on demand. due to the nationwide scamdemic many natural gas intensifying stations were left short staffed or in many cases taken off line completely, the high demand for gas to heat homes and run other things reduced the quanity and pressures required to run the generators,many of the generators were not even maintained to be brought online at all so there was power outages.

In fact, a study done by the state showed that wind and solar played a large part in propping up the grid. The problems were twofold: 1.) The natural gas production facilities supplying the generating stations were never properly winterized, so they were going offline as they froze up, and 2.) After ERCOT ordered all the utilities to start cutting power to keep the grid from completely going down and suffering major damage, some cut power to the natural gas suppliers and distributors, which made the problem even worse. However, even though folks early on blamed renewable energy producers as the problem, they were online with all their normal production facilities and actually saved the day (along with nuclear and coal, to be fair). Interestingly enough, the Texas legislature took relatively quick action to "ensure" this doesn't happen, again, but with one major shortcoming--they didn't require the gas producers to take steps to properly winterize their facilities, which was the cause of all this mess.

But I do agree that distributed generation is going to be the wave of the future, if the big utilities don't get their way. In nearly every state, they are trying to push through laws that will restrict implementation of independent home/business solar systems and stop states from forcing them to purchase excess power that's generated. It only makes sense to take the physical grid out of the equation in large part, both to cut electrical losses, as well as reduce construction and maintenance costs. Of course, you'd still need the grid to dump excess power onto, to support homes and businesses that don't have solar (or wind or water), and to provide power when the local source is down for whatever reason. But it wouldn't need to be nearly the grid we have today, especially the huge, long distance transmission lines.

[hemmjo]

I am not a fan of Electric Cars for many reasons. Someday, but not now.

This video is from a documentary created by Michael Moore. I am even LESS a fan of Michael Moore. He is notorious for spinning things to his point of view. He edits clips to distort facts. This clips is from around 2010. It was not GM that said 95% of the electric for EV's come from coal. It was executive of the Lansing Board of Water & Light.

There is so much miss information spread around it makes it too easy for people to disprove statements made in defense of some cause. Saying that GM said the EV is charged with 95% coal is false. That appears to make the whole video false, and therefore one would assume the EV's are not that bad. We need to give REAL, truthful arguments for bad ideas, not arguments that are so easily refuted.

I believe this is very good.

[schuylergrace]

Yeah, it would be kinda hard for 95% of the electric for EVs to come from coal, when coal accounts for less than 11% of the electric generation in this country. And we all should remember that we are in the infancy of this technology. I don't think battery powered vehicles are a long-term solution--fuel cells seem like a much better idea once they are developed further--but batteries are a workable power source for now. Also, there are plans for vehicles to draw power from the roadways, which would make virtually unlimited distance travel possible, once the infrastructure is implemented. Right now, though, we are where we were back a century ago, when gasoline infrastructure was just being built out. Lots of changes are coming, but I think fossil fuels are dying out, if for no other reason than burning them is a waste of a finite resource that has so many other uses.

[mklotz]

Yeah, it would be kinda hard for 95% of the electric for EVs to come from coal, when coal accounts for less than 11% of the electric generation in this country. ...

According to this...

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

about 22% of electricity is generated using coal.

[schuylergrace]

According to this...

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3

about 22% of electricity is generated using coal.

I went back and looked at my source (https://usafacts.org/earth-day-facts...waAvG-EALw_wcB), and it apparently covers all energy production, not just electricity. Your numbers are closer to what I remembered, which still don't have coal being the primary source of energy for electric vehicles. Thanks for a better picture of this energy sector, alone, which is what we were talking about.

[Frank S]

I think we have run this thread run off the rails, time for Jon to post us another picture to put us back on track

[Rikk]

I think we have run this thread run off the rails, time for Jon to post us another picture to put us back on track

AGREED!!!!


The Iron Range & Huron Bay Railroad (IR&HB) is a defunct railroad constructed to haul iron ore in Michigan's Upper Peninsula during the 1890s. Financial and engineering problems prevented the railroad's operation; it remains an unusual example of a railroad which was completed but never used.





The terrain for the line proved forbidding. The country was hilly and broken; grading the roadbed proved an expensive and intensive activity. By June 1891 an initial workforce of 500 men had swelled to 1,500, which strained the local transportation network. The builder, Wallace Dingman of Battle Creek, Michigan, ran out of money in August and abandoned work, leaving the IR&HB with unpaid bills and swamping Marquette County's limited poor relief resources.[7] New contractors were hired and the grading was finally finished in the summer of 1892, reportedly at the cost of $400,000–well above the $265,000 budgeted for the project. One major obstacle was a 1,000-foot (305 m) cut near Mount Arvon, from which 40,000 cubic yards (31,000 m3) of rock were removed. The rails were laid between July and November 1892.

The ore dock was built on the shores of Huron Bay for $170,000 under the supervision of John Munro, Jr. It measured 1,000 feet (305 m) in length and required 2,000,000 board feet (4,719 m3) of lumber. A sawmill was constructed to process the vast amounts of timber necessary for the project.

Although the IR&HB completed the 42-mile (68 km) line[10] between Champion and Huron Bay and purchased two 4-8-0 "Mastodon" steam locomotives from the Brooks Locomotive Works, no trains were ever operated. Reference Barnett implies 35 miles in his calculates; Dompier claims 42 miles, as does the Times article cited below. The completion of the line coincided with the Panic of 1893, which reduced the demand for iron ore. Additionally, the ore mines around Lake Michigamme–which the IR&HB had intended to serve–began to play out. There were richer mines in Ishpeming to the east, but the IR&HB lacked the wherewithal to construct such a line, which would have spanned 15 to 20 miles (24 to 32 km). In places the IR&HB line exceeded a grade of 5%, which would have made the haulage of freight difficult. For a standard-gauge non-rack rail railroad like the IR&HB, 3% was "excessive" and anything over 4.5% unheard of. Some sources claim the IR&HB exceeded 8% in places.

A test run was done with one of the newly delivered locomotives. A number of internet sources cite differing times, length of the travel and the outcome. A fair use quote of the 2 M ride page from Sam Beck, a railroad watchman: “As the last eleven miles of the road were downgrade, we decided the uphill run from Huron Bay would be a good test. I was in the cab with the engineer and we had proceeded just a short distance up the grade when the railroad gave way and we went into a ditch.” “From that moment on, the Iron Range and Huron Bay Railroad ceased to exist as a railroad!”

By 1893 the IR&HB found itself in serious financial difficulties. In 1890 it had begun with $1,400,000 in capital through an initial stock issue coupled with the sale of bonds. Additional bonds worth $600,000 were sold to cover construction overruns and keep the railroad afloat, but its debts mounted. Finally, in 1900, the company's owners sold it outright to the Detroit Construction Company for $110,000.

You can still visit this location today if you are willing to do a bit of hiking.

[TrickieDickie]

Electric automobiles were around before the first gas powered vehicle and to this day batteries still do not have the same power density as fossil fuels. I remember Katrina back in 2005 and big areas of Louisiana was without power, some for weeks, there was no power at my house for 6 days. There were long gas lines at what few stations open.....have these Greenies contemplated how to charge a battery in a "grid down scenario"? I suspect they will bring in diesel powered generators.